SriK escribió:
Yeah, the problem with short-range action is indeed that it limits the pace of the game, even with all of the bells and whistles we've thrown in (slide, double jump, zipline, etcetera). The game definitely becomes more of a memorizer because of the aspects you mentioned as well, and the more stuff we throw at the player the more important the memorization aspect will become.
Oh, not at all. Think of Irem's Spartan X (or the Western version Kung-Fu Master, if you prefer). It basically is the before-and-after milestone in the short-range sidescrolling action genre. Your character doesn't move around at warp speed exactly and yet, the pace is fast and uninterrupted. And the memorization aspect is way less relevant than the reaction skills, comparatively, at least.
Your approach of course is not that, I'm aware, but that was precisely my point -- the arcade school, with Spartan X as its founder (Tatakai no Banka, Dragon Ninja, Daiku no Gen-san...), is more compelling and exciting than that other school which was soon confined in home territories and their low-spec requirements. (Which doesn't mean that the formula cannot be evolved a bit to be more exciting, and a wider move set is a good start indeed.)
I'm not a huge fan of games with a rigorous memorization aspect myself, and I would love to up the intensity of the action too (while still keeping the overall melee focus), so this is a problem I've thought about a lot lately. And the current solution I'm considering is twofold:
a subweapon system: exactly what you mentioned later in your post, where the player has to choose between keeping their current weapon and swapping it for a new one. (The default weapon would be grenades, same as now, but the behavior of these would be modified to serve more of a crowd control aspect, allowing more leeway in having mobs of enemies rush the player.)
a default mid-range attack: allowing the player to deal with enemies from a bit farther away, with whatever balance caveats are necessary to keep the melee attacks incredibly useful (recharge time, weaker damage, whatever). The most natural choice for this, given the current concept, would be using the zipline as a whip a la Castlevania.
The examples above show that there's no need for mid-range attacks in order to keep the intensity high enough -- it's more a matter of enemies in constant flow. Mid-range would, in principle, help in the subsequent crowd control aspect, but in the end, the game might become as hard as anyone no matter the range (Tora he no Michi is a good example of how to build a game around this). Anyway, both ideas can work, though I'll always be partial to the one which doesn't involve more than one main attack button -- if there's much need of using my third finger constantly (as much as the first button, or close enough), I'll treat that as a design mistake. Arcade conventions are against that and it's for a reason.
The former idea, by the way, suggests me that the weapons should be exclusively upgradeable -- the notion of seeing a more powerful and spectacular version of a known weapon only if you keep it for long enough (like in shooting games) always works and adds to the strategic aspect.
(Regarding what you said about a variety section where the game switches out short- and mid-range mechanics for straight up run-and-gun action, it's a good idea if we're able to implement it; I just wouldn't want the entire game to turn into a run-and-gun. After all, there are a million games already that play essentially like Metal Slug or Contra, and not so many that play like the Natsume games, or even something like Rockman Zero. I'm incredibly interested to try and see how far the latter formula can go!)
Keep in mind that, much like I do when I'm reviewing a game, I'm not considering the budget and resources aspects -- I'm just trying to picture what would be my ideal vision of your game, the perfect form. Adding a Metal Slug-like section would imply indeed creating another game engine, and that may be a lot to ask for. Nevertheless, after watching you video till the end, the first thing I thought is this will need variety more than anything, DECO-style. And it'd also be quite an epic way to surprise the player, especially, after such methodical mechanics. Again, I'm just brainstorming. With limited resources, it's always better one single engine perfectly polished than an amalgamation of genres just because.
Of course, complexifying the mechanics further like this ties into the control aspect you mentioned. And I have to confess: I hadn't thought at all about how the game would work on arcade sticks before reading your post, as I don't currently own one and hadn't tested with one yet. And it does seem like a four-button layout would be necessary, at the very least:
I'm not sure how natural this would feel on an arcade stick, and I am going to try it out as soon as I ship one to my new apartment. It feels natural enough on a controller, at least (as you mentioned, C/D can be mapped to shoulder buttons, and A/B work as regular buttons). And of course, controls will be completely customizable in the settings to the player's content.
(The reason I haven't mapped the slide to Down+A is because you need this combination to switch between, for example, the buildings and streets in the first section of the stage.)
So yeah; try it. Under the best conditions you can, please. Then, I'm confident that we won't need to discuss that that control scheme is far from optimal. The down + jump command assigned to both, going down to the lower plane and sliding/rolling/etc. is an old issue which is usually solved by not allowing to slide in the upper planes. The game is designed around that (there are numerous holes which let you go down, for instance) and adds an extra little layer of strategy.
I can suggest this:
For types 1 and 2:
- A: attack
- B: jump / slide (with down) / go down (with down)
- C: subweapon / zipline (when jumping)
- D: not used
Really -- on an arcade stick (and on any controller, when you come down to it), minus is more. Layouts such as Street Fighter's work for very particular reasons. This is not the case since the conventions are pretty old now. If you need to have both, whip and subweapons such as grenades [hey, I wrote that correctly this time], then, neutral/left/right + C is whip and down + C is subweapon (that is, when crouching). This way, you force me to use C button a lot, that's right, but since I don't have to worry about a 4th button and, since all the actions for that button are indeed about special weapons/tools, my brain will get used to it quickly. Depth without complexity -- arcade philosophy; tight design.
If you _really_ need to make the extra weapons usable mid-air, then D button should be included in the layout for something like this:
- A: attack
- B: jump / slide (with down) / go down (with down)
- C: whip / zipline (when jumping)
- D: subweapon
But then you should limit the subweapon action to a very punctual usage overall, as I explained to you the other day, or think about placing that layout on a type 3 configuration (maybe I'd swap C for D, in order to have zipline right below the jump button) so that you use two fingers for all the actions, but that's always way less natural for this genre.
And yep -- up + attack for subweapon is not something you'll find on arcade games, it's computer/console mentality from an era where these couldn't use a controller with more than 1 or 2 buttons. Not a good idea.
Comments on aesthetics will need to wait till tomorrow, I'm afraid.
