126 Respuesta por Calamity

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Re: El PC y la baja resolución.

Hola,

Pegote, sin conocer las especificaciones del Hantarex que mencionas, sólo podemos especular. En cualquier caso, como ha comentado Recap, tanto si te decantas por la conexión RGB-HV como por la SCART, no creo que tengas mayores problemas para hacerte con un cable ya fabricado. Para la conexión VGA-SCART específicamente, hay gente que los fabrica y envía por un módico precio. Ten en cuenta que los VGA-SCART que venden en tiendas de electrónica *no sirven* para nuestros propósitos, porque están pensados únicamente para uso en proyectores.

También estoy de acuerdo con Recap en que posiblemente sólo acepte señales de 15,7 KHz, al menos por la entrada SCART.

En cuanto a la pregunta de Recap sobre los monitores trifrecuencia, lamentablemente no dispongo de ninguno para hacer pruebas. Estuve dándole vueltas al asunto de adaptar el "configurador" para estos monitores. El caso es que desconozco si el comportamiento de los monitores trifrecuencia es continuo para todo el rango de frecuencias que admiten (15,7/25,00/31Khz), o por contra (como intuyo que de hecho ocurre) funcionan a saltos, es decir, admitirían frecuencias cercanas a 15,7, también cercanas a 25,00 ó 31,00 Khz, pero no frecuencias intermedias, por ejemplo 18,00 Khz. Si lo primero fuera cierto bastaría con seleccionar el rango completo de frecuencias válidas en el "configurador" y quizá algún otro ajuste menor para hacerlos funcionar, pero me temo que esto no es así, y habría que ir a un enfoque distinto: considerar tres intervalos independientes de frecuencias, como si fueran tres monitores diferentes, cada uno con su rango útil de frecuencias. Este es el enfoque que usa AdvanceMame. Para ello sí que tendría que modificar sustancialmente el "configurador".

Como decía, el problema es que no tengo material para hacer pruebas. Por tanto, me preocupa liberar un programa que sea potencialmente peligroso sin haber hecho las pruebas oportunas. Especialmente, después de leer que hay monitores delicados que sólo aceptan ciertos modos de vídeo y que se dañan realmente, como este Pentranic:

http://www.starcab.net/ressources/docs/ … _29CGAVGA.

... el cual solo aceptaría estos tres modos:
560x240 CGA 15Khz
640x350 EGA 24.5Khz
640x480 VGA 31.5Khz

Una vía alternativa es modificar el "configurador" para generar soluciones ad hoc, de forma manual, el la que establezcamos los modelines específicos que queremos y la frecuencia deseada.

Saludos,

Calamity

127 Respuesta por Recap

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Re: El PC y la baja resolución.

Gracias por adelantarte, porque es lo que necesitaba saber. Yo también creo que van por intervalos independientes y es razonable que no te atrevas a publicar a ciegas. Me encantaría ofrecerme como conejillo de Indias pero yo tampoco tengo uno aún, y estaba un poco esperando a preguntarte a ver. Si doy con algo que pueda ser interesante, te digo algo.

128 Respuesta por Pegote

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Re: El PC y la baja resolución.

Por mi parte, gracias por las respuestas, manes. De momento solo pude confirmar que el monitor de mi mensaje anterior es un MGG EQ de los primeros, y según alguien del soporte oficial de Hantarex, estos no tenían entrada SCART. Pero sí trae la entrada de 9 pines que serviría para mandarle señal VGA (de 15khz, sí, pero creo que por ahora me basta y sobra.)

En cuanto al tema del cable (que igual no me molesta cazar el soldador y encargarme solito, ya me he quemado las puntas de los dedos antes), no me queda tan claro que se pueda conseguir un cable "standard" - por lo que vi en varios diagramas, los diferentes modelos de Hantarex muestran diferentes pinouts en la entrada de RGB, y pa' peor no he podido encontrar puntualmente el manual del MGG EQ original.

(De todos modos, ahora mismo mi gran espina está con el drama logístico (¿y burocrático?) de hacer cruzar un cacharro de estos por el charco que separa a Colonia del Sacramento y Buenos Aires. Parece que voy a tener que aguantar piola un rato antes de darle cierre al asunto...)

Saludos.

129 Respuesta por Recap

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Re: El PC y la baja resolución.

VGA ('alta resolución') = 31 kHz; ojo. Y coger uno de éstos que no sea multifrecuencia, salvo que sea una cuestión inmediata, es un error, si quieres mi opinión. Incluso teniendo en cuenta lo difícil que es encontrar TV con señal RGB por las Américas, con un monitor sin entrada SCART vas a tener que fabricarte un cable RGB por cada consola que quieras conectar... La única _gran_ ventaja de estos aparatos es que admiten también 24 y 31 kHz, que solo encuentras de otro modo en los últimos CRT que se fabricaron para cabinas recreativas (que, lógicamente, van sin caja); de lo contrario, creo que te puede merecer más la pena incluso que alguien te envíe un TV Trinitron desde Europa.

130 Respuesta por Pegote

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Re: El PC y la baja resolución.

Entiendo a lo que vas, pero la verdá de momento el dichoso MGG EQ es lo mejorcito que he encontrado por acá. Y me planteo que, mientras pueda correr los juegos de emuladores de sistemas más viejitos -SNES, Genesis, los del MAME, etc.- a sus resoluciones correctas (entendiendo que, monitor de 15khz mediante, se puede), seguir enchufando el PS2 por video compuesto no me va a quitar demasiado el sueño (de última, no puede verse peor que en mi tele actual.) Igual, ni hablar que seguiré a la búsqueda de una solución más versátil.

(Pero bue, ya estoy hablando de comprometer calidad y versatilidad, este hilo estaba para cosas mayores.)

131 Respuesta por Recap

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Re: El PC y la baja resolución.

Pegote escribió:

Entiendo a lo que vas, pero la verdá de momento el dichoso MGG EQ es lo mejorcito que he encontrado por acá. Y me planteo que, mientras pueda correr los juegos de emuladores de sistemas más viejitos -SNES, Genesis, los del MAME, etc.- a sus resoluciones correctas (entendiendo que, monitor de 15khz mediante, se puede)

Se puede, monitor de 15 kHz _y_ tarjeta gráfica apta para bajas resoluciones mediantes, tal y como explica el hilo. Por aclarar. Y asegúrate también de que el monitor trabaja realmente con señales analógicas. Es muy poco probable que lo haga solo con digitales (como el modelo que enlazó Calamity), pero nunca se sabe.




seguir enchufando el PS2 por video compuesto no me va a quitar demasiado el sueño (de última, no puede verse peor que en mi tele actual.)

Parece claro que te tocará hacer un cable RGB para conectar la tarjeta gráfica al monitor (si encuentras algo hecho con esa norma, dudo que sea en 15 kHz), por lo que lanzarse a la vez a transformar un cable RGB SCART de PS, diríase obligado...

132 Respuesta por Eboshidori

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Re: El PC y la baja resolución.

Hola ! ^^

I will try to respond to this topic, with the approximate help of online translators ('cause I'm french).


Me encantaría ofrecerme como conejillo de Indias pero yo tampoco tengo uno aún, y estaba un poco esperando a preguntarte a ver.

Funny translation :

" J'adorerais m'offrir comme petit lapin de l'Amérique mais je n'ai pas non plus l'un toujours(encore), et il(elle) attendait pour te demander un peu à voir. "

I don't know what a "little rabbit of the America" have to do there... ^^'


But OK, just a few words about tri-sync monitors :

Everybody still use the "CGA-EGA-VGA" naming to describe these monitors, which can lead to confusions, because those standards are digitals, and there are some digital only monitors, and some that accept digital and analog signals (on separate connectors).

When you have a tri-sync monitor, you should read : "15-24-31 Khz", not "CGA-EGA-VGA", because even if it concern the same frequencies, the latters are digital norms.

I saw a link to Starcab.net, even if it's not about a Hantarex monitor, so I guess your monitor is really an arcade one, and not a stand-alone broadcast monitor or something else. And man, in arcades, almost everything is analog video since decades. Your tri-sync monitor, like many arcade monitors, is designed for analog video, for several frequencies, and it has only one connector, so every signals will go inside (and you can be sure it's analog only, because when you have digital+analog monitors, you always have separate connectors).

You need to know the pin-out of the connector (pins for composite sync at 15 and 24/25 kHz, and separate sync at 31 kHz), and you need to know if the frequency selection is automatic or if you need to move a jumper on the chassis (on the big PCB under the picture tube).

Beware that arcade monitors standard is 2.5 to 5 Volts for video signal (15-24 kHz), 1 volt for 31 Khz.
If you want to plug any home console or you PC driven at 15 kHz (1 volt), you need a video amplifier, otherwise you will get a very dark picture.


Another thing: the same way you have lots of resolutions around the frequency of 15 khz (from 240x192 progressive to 768x576 interlaced), so you have lot of resolutions around 24-25 kHz and 31 kHz. The only limits are the margins of the electronics. They vary according to manufacturers, but in analog world, you have a lot of freedom, more than in old digital standard (with very limited resolutions and colors available for every frequency).

Some monitors can accept non standard frequencies (outside the basic 15-16, 24-25 and 31-33 kHz), but most of them are locked around those.
Virtualy every modern chassis (less than 15 years old) can accept out of range frequencies without damage. They either refuse the signal (telling you "out of range") or simply accept it but you won't be able to see a usable picture.
Some old TVs (15 kHz only) display a weird picture if you send a 31 kHz signal on it, but they aren't damaged, as long as you don't stay too much time. So, try many frequencies to see the margin of your monitor, and don't display out of range signals for too long, and it will be fine.
Anyway, there are very few resolutions used at 24-25 and 31 Khz, because there are very few games that run at those frequencies. When you talk about 24 kHz, most time it's Sega hardware (and few Konami ones), with two or three given resolutions, and 31 Khz is mostly used for 640x480 (I don't know if there are games at 853x480, for example).
Some Japanese computer may use different resolutions at those frequencies (like 768x512) , but the most diverse frequencies are around 15 kHz (and most of the best video games ever run at 15 kHz :D ).


So, I hope everything is more clear know...^^

133 Respuesta por Recap

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Re: El PC y la baja resolución.

Eboshidori escribió:

Funny translation :

" J'adorerais m'offrir comme petit lapin de l'Amérique mais je n'ai pas non plus l'un toujours(encore), et il(elle) attendait pour te demander un peu à voir. "

I don't know what a "little rabbit of the America" have to do there... ^^'

It's perfectly accurate, though! "Guinea pig" to you and me.

134 Respuesta por Recap

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Re: El PC y la baja resolución.

Eboshidori escribió:

I saw a link to Starcab.net, even if it's not about a Hantarex monitor, so I guess your monitor is really an arcade one, and not a stand-alone broadcast monitor or something else. And man, in arcades, almost everything is analog video since decades. Your tri-sync monitor, like many arcade monitors, is designed for analog video, for several frequencies, and it has only one connector, so every signals will go inside (and you can be sure it's analog only, because when you have digital+analog monitors, you always have separate connectors).

I'm afraid those're two different discussions, so to clarify: Pegote's monitor (see his first post) is apparently a Hantarex videowall-type monitor, with only a 9-pin input. As far as I know, those weren't actually different to the ones they made for arcade cabs, though they got a shell and different connectors, depending on the model. For this one, he's not sure if it's tri-sync, hence the inquiry.

The Starcab link Calamity posted was intended as an example for CGA/EGA/VGA monitors, as opposed to analog multi-sync monitors as you explain, since I asked him about reprogramming his ATI driver for multi-sync users (as they're now, you only can use them for 15 kHz). He was trying to tell us that he wouldn't know how to properly modify the driver unless he gets one of these monitors, given that he doesn't want to release an untested soft.




You need to know the pin-out of the connector (pins for composite sync at 15 and 24/25 kHz, and separate sync at 31 kHz), and you need to know if the frequency selection is automatic or if you need to move a jumper on the chassis (on the big PCB under the picture tube).

That's a very good reminder.



Beware that arcade monitors standard is 2.5 to 5 Volts for video signal (15-24 kHz), 1 volt for 31 Khz.
If you want to plug any home console or you PC driven at 15 kHz (1 volt), you need a video amplifier, otherwise you will get a very dark picture.

That too. Some elaboration on this for posterity's sake, please?




Some monitors can accept non standard frequencies (outside the basic 15-16, 24-25 and 31-33 kHz), but most of them are locked around those.

That answers the question Calamity and I had. Pretty much confirms our guess.



Anyway, there are very few resolutions used at 24-25 and 31 Khz, because there are very few games that run at those frequencies. When you talk about 24 kHz, most time it's Sega hardware (and few Konami ones), with two or three given resolutions, and 31 Khz is mostly used for 640x480 (I don't know if there are games at 853x480, for example).

While 24 kHz is indeed obscure (though it may be worth just for Gain Ground), 640 x 480 is used by many, many games. And not only PC ones, you know.




Some Japanese computer may use different resolutions at those frequencies (like 768x512) , but the most diverse frequencies are around 15 kHz (and most of the best video games ever run at 15 kHz

768 x 512 is actually used only by Sharp's X-68000, it seems. Would be nice to get it (or 512 x 512) on your 31-kHz monitor, but better yet, 512 x 512 interlaced on your Trinitron TV in order to de-interlace the games via the TV's feature and get them displayed at their design resolution. It's indeed a tricky subject and I still need to discuss it with Calamity. And deserves a whole article, I guess.

135 Respuesta por Eboshidori

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Re: El PC y la baja resolución.

Recap escribió:

It's perfectly accurate, though! "Guinea pig" to you and me.

Yeah, "conejillo de Indias" is "Guinea pig" in english. But in french, it should have been "cochon d'Inde" (a pig from India). I don't know why they choose "rabbit" instead, and "rabbit from america", which does absolutly not refers to the "conejillo de Indias". And I still don't understand the sentence, it's a special expression in spanish ? Because there's no relation whatsoever with computer stuffs, nor monitor things...^^'


Ok, I just checked a topic where Pegote explain his situation:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/crt-tvs/ … input.html

So it's a modified wall monitor. And it does accept analog and digital signals by the same connector ! ^^'
(just have to switch between analog and TTL)

The 9-pin connector is clearly labelled "RGB HV" (HV for separate sync, on 2 pins), meaning that you may need an external sync splitter if you send a 15 kHz signal (composite sync, on one pin). The chassis may be 31 kHz only but I don't think so.

Polarity of the sync pulse: the 15 kHz video standard has negative sync (meaning below the voltage of the black level, set at 0.3 volts).
There are few sources that provide negative sync (H) and positive sync (V), but in most case, sync is negative, for both H and V.



(on the AVS forum)

Would i need to ground red, green and blue seperately at both ends? The barco pinout only describes 2 ground pins. As the hantarex and the Barco seem to be have been part of the same videowall at some point, do you think they are likely to have the same pinout on their respective 9 pin inputs?

Generally, you need to keep signal grounds separate along the cable, but at both end, they can be joined.
The pinout may be the same for Barco and Hantarex, but it depends on how the chassis work, what they need from the signal.


The barco showed nothing, but the hantarex at least gave me some sense of a signal (i.e multicoloured lines which responded to me stopping and starting the dvd).

I don't understand the last sentence...

136 Respuesta por Eboshidori

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Re: El PC y la baja resolución.

Recap escribió:

As far as I know, those weren't actually different to the ones they made for arcade cabs, though they got a shell and different connectors, depending on the model. For this one, he's not sure if it's tri-sync, hence the inquiry.

The picture tube may be the same (of the same quality, i.e same precision for the pitch, around 0.8 mm), but the electronics may differs on more than the connector. An arcade monitor requires at least 2.5 volts for a video signal at 15 kHz, and a broadcast/wall monitor may only need 1 volt. The wall monitor may not be able to accept composite sync (i.e. need of external splitter, or a special box as mentionned above).



I asked him about reprogramming his ATI driver for multi-sync users (as they're now, you only can use them for 15 kHz). He was trying to tell us that he wouldn't know how to properly modify the driver unless he gets one of these monitors, given that he doesn't want to release an untested soft.

OK, I understand better. But it's the same thing: even if you can set lots of resolutions for 24 khz and 31 kHz with the special driver... where are the games that run at those resolutions ? ^^'

24 Khz is 640x350,  496x384 or 480x384... That would be nice to run an Xbox 360 at 640x360 for example ^^, but you would need a 16/9 CRT.


640 x 480 is used by many, many games. And not only PC ones, you know.

There are many games that run at 31 kHz (from PC or other hardware), but it's 640x480, or 640x448 (the PS2 in NTSC, for the very few games designed for). I don't know games that run at a different resolutions. You have some mid 90' PC games that run under 640x480, but you could display them with black border inside a standard 640x480 space.



Beware that arcade monitors standard is 2.5 to 5 Volts for video signal (15-24 kHz), 1 volt for 31 Khz.
If you want to plug any home console or you PC driven at 15 kHz (1 volt), you need a video amplifier, otherwise you will get a very dark picture.

That too. Some elaboration on this for posterity's sake, please?

A video signal has several levels:

- 0 volts for sync pulses
- 0.3 volts for black level
- 1 volt for peak white (15 khz from home devices, 31 Khz from PC or arcade boards)
or 2.5 to 5 volts (peak white) for 15/24 kHz arcade boards, and CGA/EGA devices.

If you plug a 1 volt video signal on a chassis that requires at least 2.5 volts, you will get a picture, but the chassis will consider that everything from this signal belongs to the lower end of the grayscal, meaning a very dark picture on your screen (and you can't do much about it, even by pushing the contrast setting to the max).

So, you need a video amplifier, that will keep the black level (0.3 volts), and will amplify the margin between 0.3 to 1 volt (0.7 volt amplitude) to the required level, meaning that the peak white of the signals match between the source and the chassis of the monitor.





768 x 512 is actually used only by Sharp's X-68000, it seems. Would be nice to get it (or 512 x 512) on your 31-kHz monitor, but better yet, 512 x 512 interlaced on your Trinitron TV in order to de-interlace the games via the TV's feature and get them displayed at their design resolution. It's indeed a tricky subject and I still need to discuss it with Calamity. And deserves a whole article, I guess.

Yeah, because there aren't much games designed for full 512x512 and 768x512, I guess...

137 Respuesta por Recap (editado por Recap 04-08-2010 22:19:11)

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Re: El PC y la baja resolución.

Eboshidori escribió:
Recap escribió:

It's perfectly accurate, though! "Guinea pig" to you and me.

Yeah, "conejillo de Indias" is "Guinea pig" in english. But in french, it should have been "cochon d'Inde" (a pig from India). I don't know why they choose "rabbit" instead, and "rabbit from america", which does absolutly not refers to the "conejillo de Indias". And I still don't understand the sentence, it's a special expression in spanish ? Because there's no relation whatsoever with computer stuffs, nor monitor things...^^'

"Me encantaría ofrecerme como conejillo de Indias pero yo tampoco tengo uno aún, y estaba un poco esperando a preguntarte a ver."

I'd love to volunteer myself as a guinea pig [for testing out the reprogrammed drivers], but I don't have [a multi-sync monitor] either yet and was waiting in case I decided to ask you about it all.

"Conejillo" is indeed "little rabbit". The animal we use for the simile is different. Some sort of long-tailed rat, if I recall.





OK, I understand better. But it's the same thing: even if you can set lots of resolutions for 24 khz and 31 kHz with the special driver... where are the games that run at those resolutions ? ^^'

As I told you, there's Gain Ground (and all the non-quiz System 24 games, if you ask me, assuming MAME or something emulates them properly one day). But getting 24 kHz modelines is not the question here actually. The point is using a single [big] monitor for all the gaming needs.




There are many games that run at 31 kHz (from PC or other hardware), but it's 640x480, or 640x448 (the PS2 in NTSC, for the very few games designed for). I don't know games that run at a different resolutions. You have some mid 90' PC games that run under 640x480, but you could display them with black border inside a standard 640x480 space.

See above. What do you use for 31-kHz gaming these days? A tiny 20'' VGA PC monitor? I hope you don't!



Yeah, because there aren't much games designed for full 512x512 and 768x512, I guess...

There are a couple worth trying. The best one: http://postback.geedorah.com/revisiones … elt_01.htm




And thanks for the explanation once again. How's it then that all the PCBs I've seen on standard RGB TVs looked okay? And example for good video amplifier?




Edit: And "Las Indias" are in fact "the Americas". Think that our Columbus thought he traveled to Asia that day.

138 Respuesta por Pegote

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Re: El PC y la baja resolución.

Eboshidori escribió:

Ok, I just checked a topic where Pegote explain his situation:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/crt-tvs/ … input.html

Hey Eboshidori. I'm afraid I didn't make that post :vP and I don't have any of those beautiful monitors. I only linked to that post earlier (actually, to one of its photos) for reference. I even got in contact with that dude to ask him some questions about the monitors. (He bought a few for a video exhibition. 26 of them!) Me, I'm only gathering some info before I buy a monitor similar to the one mentioned before (a couple of composite inputs, and one 9-pin RGB input - no SCART.)

Still, your post is full stuff I should look into, so thanks for commenting!

139 Respuesta por Recap

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Re: El PC y la baja resolución.

Retomando el tema (y el idioma):

No hemos hablado nunca de la emulación del ordenador X-68000, Calamity, y el caso es que es un sistema apasionante a nivel de 'soft'. Si no tienes aún experiencia, espero despertarte el interés poco a poco. Lo malo es que el X-68000 empleaba originalmente unos modos bastante particulares, y, peor, aún, los emuladores existentes (todos nipones) no permiten configurar la resolución de salida para pantalla completa. Esto es especialmente un obstáculo puesto que el modo que emplean es 800 x 600.

Tiene un porqué -- la resolución máxima del sistema era de 768×512 (a 55.41  Hz, de acuerdo a MESS) y la más usada, 512 x 512 (sin líneas inactivas), por lo que 640 x 480 se queda corta. El ordenador también era capaz de bajas resoluciones (se vendía con monitores trifrecuencia), y muchos juegos contemplaban (algunos, de forma 'oculta', curiosamente) opción de 15 kHz además de 31 (ó 24), que era más que necesario dado que gran parte de ellos estaban diseñados en baja (empezando por las conversiones de recreativas, que no fueron pocas). Tristemente, algunos NO permitían 15 kHz a pesar de su diseño en baja, pero esto tiene arreglo, como luego verás.

Con los modos en baja parece que lo más frecuente era encontrarse con 256 x 240. Es curioso que los juegos que admiten ambos modos muestran 256 duplicadas para 31 kHz, mientras que al cambiar a 15 kHz, nos eliminan 16 líneas (ya vine a contarlo hace tiempo aquí: http://postback.geedorah.com/revisiones … ace_01.htm , si quieres un ejemplo). Nos importa poco para nuestro menester porque el emulador los sigue ejecutando a 800 x 600 (alguno te permite introducir una más que limitada simulación de 'scanlines', pero ya).

Sin embargo, y mientras consigo ponerme en contacto con los desarrolladores para que implementen sus programas (aunque parecen abandonados -- no contengáis el aliento), los modos en ventana pueden ir salvando la situación, puesto que aquí sí te dan bastante margen de maniobra. La cuestión es que se hace necesario el modo ~512 x 512 x 55.41 en el 'driver' (gracias a la capacidad de auto-desentrelazado de mi Trinitron, puedo convertir la alta en baja -- esto merece un artículo aparte); ¿me puedo atrever a introducirlo vía ResList.txt, tal como me apuntaste una vez?


Por si acaso:

WIN X68k High Speed: http://www.geocities.jp/winx68khighspeed/ (descarga: http://www.geocities.jp/winx68khighspee … edv095.zip )

XM6: http://ytanaka.vicp.net/ (descarga: http://ytanaka.vicp.net/x680x0/xm6_206.lzh )

(El más destacable es el primero. Creo que van ya con imágenes de la BIOS porque Sharp las liberó, pero preguntadme si no os pita.)

140 Respuesta por Recap

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Re: El PC y la baja resolución.

La discusión sobre CRT en inglés se ha trasladado aquí:

http://postback.geedorah.com/foros/view … 509#p10509



Aprovecho para apuntar que la emulación del X-68000 ya está perfectamente adaptada para tarjetas de 15 kHz gracias, una vez más, a Calamity. Pronto, más.