1 (editado por Recap 21-05-2013 11:30:28)

Tema: Guilty Gear Xrd ~Sign~ (ARC)

http://imgur.com/5Wcdwji.png

http://ggxrd.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKGPhKu3jNg

Con esto Ishiwatari demuestra que puede destruir a Capcom en su propio juego.

2

Re: Guilty Gear Xrd ~Sign~ (ARC)

O destruir un estilo gráfico que caracterizaba la saga.

Esto de intentar mimetizarse con los gráficos "2-D" existiendo los gráficos "2-D", y sólo para introducir algún puntual movimiento de perspectiva que acaba sobrando en el fluir del juego después de verlo un par de veces, es una majadería. Lo diré siempre.


Te edito el título porque "Sign" no son unas siglas. Se prepara, de momento, para Ring Edge 2 y su All-Net (distribución digital). Con Sega en la edición, volviendo a demostrarse que de "perder los derechos", na':

http://i.imgur.com/9ckZNS3.jpg

http://www.4gamer.net/games/216/G021678/20130518006/


Gracias por el mensaje.

Re: Guilty Gear Xrd ~Sign~ (ARC)

Con respecto a la cuestión de los derechos, y para tenerlo claro de una buena vez, ¿puede ser que Sega los tenga solamente para las versiones de recreativa y no las hogareñas?

El único título hogareño en el que recuerdo haber visto su logo fue en la conversión para PS2 de Slash.

4

Re: Guilty Gear Xrd ~Sign~ (ARC)

Puede ser que llegaran a ese acuerdo -- "tú déjame publicar libremente en el mercado doméstico que a cambio te hago las nuevas entregas para recreativa bajo tu paraguas".

5 (editado por JoshF 03-06-2013 07:38:11)

Re: Guilty Gear Xrd ~Sign~ (ARC)

I couldn't tell they were 3D models until the camera rotated.  What I don't get is why they wouldn't try for Third Strike-quality animation if they're not manually drawing frames.

6

Re: Guilty Gear Xrd ~Sign~ (ARC)

Overtoned and faded-out outlines were quite revealing, but yeah, I didn't at first, either. It's a badly-compressed video of the next "Guilty Gear X", after all. Were it of something called, say, "Tales of Infamia", we'd have had our minds more properly set beforehand. You have there a native-res screenshot, but better yet, wait to see the game in-situ. It will get old pretty soon against this stuff:

https://i.imgur.com/u7PQxCJ.png http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0h85FIVM1Zk/UB75ipd7TuI/AAAAAAAABwM/8ouujEaspFM/s1600/jin-stance.gif


As for the limited animation frames, no wonder that helps to fool our eyes for the "2-D" look they're after, but it's also a matter of keeping the fighting engine fast enough, much like the previous GG. Standing animations are indeed as smooth as SFIII's, I'd say.

7

Re: Guilty Gear Xrd ~Sign~ (ARC)

Primer "test" público:

http://www.famitsu.com/images/000/038/147/l_520474ff41700.jpg

http://www.famitsu.com/news/201308/09038147.html

http://dengekionline.com/elem/000/000/690/690981/

http://www.radiokaikan.jp/press/?p=17669

8

Re: Guilty Gear Xrd ~Sign~ (ARC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFZ9xgjTPyM

9 (editado por ChaosAngelZero 02-12-2013 13:20:02)

Re: Guilty Gear Xrd ~Sign~ (ARC)

JoshF escribió:

I couldn't tell they were 3D models until the camera rotated.  What I don't get is why they wouldn't try for Third Strike-quality animation if they're not manually drawing frames.

I'm suspecting it may have to do with optimizing resources for the PlayStation 3 port, so to not go over its 256MB of VRAM, nor overtax its relatively slow 550MHz GPU. They chose Unreal Engine, which is mostly optimized for performing at 30 FPS on seventh generation consoles, so I guess they want to be extra careful there. Also I must admit I don't know what are the RingEdge 2's specs, though it has been confirmed the game will run at 1280×720 there.

I wonder if they'll at least have higher resolution textures for the PS4 port (ideally coupled with higher poly-count character models).

10

Re: Guilty Gear Xrd ~Sign~ (ARC)

Ring Edge 2 should be comparable to your average gaming PC from a couple of years ago; I'd say.

Josh was obviously talking about "software" FPS, not "hardware" FPS. Hence, RAM shouldn't be an issue given that this is real-time generated. As for GPU/CPU, I don't think so far it's really way beyond PS3 capabilities even at supposedly 60 FPS. It's just two characters and a quite-empty background, after all. Buy maybe I'm just difficult to impress by anime-wannabe polygons.

11

Re: Guilty Gear Xrd ~Sign~ (ARC)

http://www.4gamer.net/games/216/G021678/20130920032/

12

Re: Guilty Gear Xrd ~Sign~ (ARC)

http://www.famitsu.com/images/000/042/655/l_52748d26696be.jpg

http://www.famitsu.com/images/000/042/655/l_52748d2a13f13.jpg

http://www.famitsu.com/news/201311/02042655.html

http://www.famitsu.com/news/201311/02042663.html

13

Re: Guilty Gear Xrd ~Sign~ (ARC)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKjaWl_UbCc#t=26

"Kanchoo" para todos para acercarnos aún más al "anime" barato.

14

Re: Guilty Gear Xrd ~Sign~ (ARC)

I have to say that I think this looks great.  It's the best cel-shading I've seen in a game and hopefully we'll see more of it, with improvements (Hard Corps: Uprising 2 would be nice).  If they were trying to recreate Metal Slug visuals in 3D I would probably take issue with the rendering but for anime-style it's sufficient.

15

Re: Guilty Gear Xrd ~Sign~ (ARC)

But

https://i.imgur.com/u7PQxCJ.png http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0h85FIVM1Zk/UB75ipd7TuI/AAAAAAAABwM/8ouujEaspFM/s1600/jin-stance.gif

...!

16

Re: Guilty Gear Xrd ~Sign~ (ARC)

BlazBlue looks great for dot art.  This game looks great for 3D renders.  Since it's 3D, it has some added benefits.  The models can be used for cinematics, you can zoom in and out without pixelization, alternate costumes could be easily produced, and you would have continuity with asymetric designs (e.g. Sagat's eyepatch and scar would not flip).  All of these issues could be solved with dot art if you had a Disney-sized animation staff or didn't need to worry about return on investment, but Arc System Works isn't anywhere close to having those kinds of resources.

It's my hope that SNK and Capcom would start looking to this technology to introduce there classic styles into modern games.  I won't get 1% of the games I wish would be made, so I will be grateful for this one.  I'm also glad I'll soon be able to play a side-view fighting game that is more advanced than Street Fighter that doesn't predominantly feature emaciated little girls, and presumably won't have excessive combos that interrupt the fighting with Beatmania minigames, like MVC3.  It's definitely one of my most anticipated games now.

17

Re: Guilty Gear Xrd ~Sign~ (ARC)

JoshF escribió:

BlazBlue looks great for dot art.  This game looks great for 3D renders.

I'm not sure whether or not you're implying there that both games are aiming for different visual styles and therefore, they aren't really comparable, but if you are, I think you're missing the point. I want to believe you aren't since you already said you couldn't tell they were polygons at first, but then it seems like you can't tell which one looks better, which comes off a little surprising.

https://i.imgur.com/Ym6JOZL.png


Since it's 3D, it has some added benefits.  The models can be used for cinematics, you can zoom in and out without pixelization, alternate costumes could be easily produced, and you would have continuity with asymetric designs (e.g. Sagat's eyepatch and scar would not flip).  All of these issues could be solved with dot art if you had a Disney-sized animation staff or didn't need to worry about return on investment, but Arc System Works isn't anywhere close to having those kinds of resources.

You call those "issues"? You can zoom-in without "pixelization" on a sprite too by way of the same graphic filters you apply on a 3-D model and its textures (can't see how that's a good thing, though), but are "cinematics", alternate costumes and proper asymetry that important now? So much as to prefer them over accurate colors, absence of blurriness, measured outlines, controlled shapes, fine details, visual precision and, to sum it up, a natural way in every respect of doing 2-D animation?

...!


I'm also glad I'll soon be able to play a side-view fighting game that is more advanced than Street Fighter that doesn't predominantly feature emaciated little girls, and presumably won't have excessive combos that interrupt the fighting with Beatmania minigames, like MVC3.  It's definitely one of my most anticipated games now.

I don't see how you'll get all that with Xrd better than with BB or P4U series, but to each his own. I myself, even if I could ignore the fact that making a 2-D fighting game with real-time graphics is a conceptual abomination and therefore, a step back no matter what, just can't tolerate the ugly re-designs and character art they're showing for this. Good thing I was never really into the series, I guess.

18 (editado por JoshF 24-11-2013 01:25:22)

Re: Guilty Gear Xrd ~Sign~ (ARC)

I do think the bold outlines are a conscious stylistic choice.  It wouldn't be hard to change it if they wanted to.  The results are comparable to Daemon Bride, if not better.

Another benefit I forgot to add is that the "frames" will stay on-model.  If you look at some of the old GGX animations closely the anatomy would often shift in strange ways.  Capcom could exploit the deformation aspect of 2D animation magnificently (e.g. Wolverine in XM:CotA, which is still the best representation of the character) but the Arc System Works staff was never as talented and it just came across as drawing errors.  These models are a marked step up from the GGX sprites, at least.  Also, I wouldn't call slight anti-aliasing "blurriness", and dot graphics use a similar technique to soften edges.

Maybe I would enjoy BlazBlue or Persona 4, but I have heard many times that they essentially use a watered-down version of the Guilty Gear X system.  I really hope that they don't do the same thing with this game.

19

Re: Guilty Gear Xrd ~Sign~ (ARC)

JoshF escribió:

I do think the bold outlines are a conscious stylistic choice.  It wouldn't be hard to change it if they wanted to.  The results are comparable to Daemon Bride, if not better.

I'm far from being a 3-D expert, but bold outlines are usually present in cel-shaded polygons. It's used to hide or alleviate unnatural-looking junctures and edges. But yeah; normally, they could have made them less evident here, but I believe that with the loss of some consistency -- they need everything that can contribute to the anime/2-D illusion they're after.

And I don't see the similarities with Daemon Bride 'cept for the lack of detail and bland colors:

http://dengekionline.com/elem/000/000/103/103277/c20080903_03_daemon_09_cs1w1_640x480.jpg



Another benefit I forgot to add is that the "frames" will stay on-model.  If you look at some of the old GGX animations closely the anatomy would often shift in strange ways.  Capcom could exploit the deformation aspect of 2D animation magnificently (e.g. Wolverine in XM:CotA, which is still the best representation of the character) but the Arc System Works staff was never as talented and it just came across as drawing errors.

Right. But then you should mention the downside for that -- if the frames stay on-model, there's no place for intended abstraction in that regard, either. Many animation patterns look a bit off in GGX indeed, but a good artist will break the mass-preservation rule eventually to emphasize a particular aspect like, say, the perspective, with better results.



These models are a marked step up from the GGX sprites, at least.

Are they?

http://horriblegames.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/guiltygear.png

...!



Also, I wouldn't call slight anti-aliasing "blurriness", and dot graphics use a similar technique to soften edges.

The heck? Where's the anti-aliasing in the BB or GGX sprites I've posted?



Maybe I would enjoy BlazBlue or Persona 4, but I have heard many times that they essentially use a watered-down version of the Guilty Gear X system.  I really hope that they don't do the same thing with this game.

I'd swear I read that with Xrd they indeed are doing that. I'm not the best to talk, but BB or P4U's complexity are closer to GGXX' than to SF IV's, that's for sure. P4U2 is supposedly getting a more technical system too.

20

Re: Guilty Gear Xrd ~Sign~ (ARC)

http://www.famitsu.com/images/000/043/734/l_52932f7273485.jpg

http://www.famitsu.com/news/201311/28043734.html

21 (editado por ChaosAngelZero 02-12-2013 13:18:20)

Re: Guilty Gear Xrd ~Sign~ (ARC)

Recap escribió:
JoshF escribió:

Another benefit I forgot to add is that the "frames" will stay on-model.  If you look at some of the old GGX animations closely the anatomy would often shift in strange ways.  Capcom could exploit the deformation aspect of 2D animation magnificently (e.g. Wolverine in XM:CotA, which is still the best representation of the character) but the Arc System Works staff was never as talented and it just came across as drawing errors.

Right. But then you should mention the downside for that -- if the frames stay on-model, there's no place for intended abstraction in that regard, either. Many animation patterns look a bit off in GGX indeed, but a good artist will break the mass-preservation rule eventually to emphasize a particular aspect like, say, the perspective, with better results.

I think there are ways to get past each approach's weakness here. With dot art, if staying on-model is paramount on some (or most) animations, the animators could create little 3D models of the characters (think basic wireframe and skeletal models), animate those, transform each key frame into dot art, and then add the bells and whistles. Transforming polygon models by intentionally "breaking" and "twisting" their aspect should be easier to do now with the much higher poly-counts (while an aesthetic piece of shit, Dhalsim's limbs do extend in SF4, after all), though I don't know just how crazy they can really get there. I want to see how they pull off stuff like Chipp's burst, or even his standard air slash without ending up in a mess of stretched-out textures.

As for the models' detail, I guess they could apply a finer, less aggressive anti-aliasing algorithm so to make the characters look more crisp ('cause I guess they won't be able to use a proper AA technique on a 60 FPS game, at least not on PS3), though I don't know what the current advances on that field are. Loss of detail when zooming in is likely unavoidable without something like LOD, and again I doubt that's possible to do on PS3.

22

Re: Guilty Gear Xrd ~Sign~ (ARC)

Whichever you apply, you won't get the look of unfiltered dot art, period. That's the nature of computer graphics. (And it's quite a shame that I seem to be the only one caring about that.)

23

Re: Guilty Gear Xrd ~Sign~ (ARC)

Tercer "test" público, ya finalizado:

http://www.4gamer.net/games/216/G021678/20131205041/

24

Re: Guilty Gear Xrd ~Sign~ (ARC)

El juego salió el 20 de Febrero y está a punto de conocer una revisión llena de pequeñas novedades:

http://ggxrd.com/wanted/


Vídeos:

http://ggxrd.com/movie/

25

Re: Guilty Gear Xrd ~Sign~ (ARC)

http://www.4gamer.net/games/232/G023276/20140612061/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2dzQq_ixYo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIrN8hMe … e=youtu.be

El modelado es definitivamente portentoso, con un control de las formas muy poco habitual. Pero que me cuelguen si cualquier "sprite" de juegos anteriores de la casa no luce mejor que esta imitación.

En fin. PS3 y PS4 confirmadas, con modo "on-line" compatible entre ambas.