1

Tema: The transliteration thread

I thought perhaps we can use this thread to discuss the proper or "best" way to transliterate the titles of Japanese games. I do know quite a bit about the subject, but not as much as I would like to.

So I was wondering what the correct way would be to write the names of Cave's donpachi series. Here's what I use right now:

Donpachi
Do Donpachi
Do Donpachi Dai-Ou-Jou

Is the above correct, Recap? Or should I be writing "DonPachi"?

Tougher than all the above is DDP II, I think. This can either be written Bee Storm: Do Donpachi II, or Do Donpachi II: Bee Storm.

2

Re: The transliteration thread

Donpachi
Do Donpachi
Do Donpachi Dai-Ou-Jou

Is the above correct, Recap?

Pretty much, I'd say. Being really picky: "Do Donpachi: Dai-Ou-Jou" is better.




Or should I be writing "DonPachi"?

Why in the world should you? (And no, finding it in Wikipedia is not a valid reason, much less on Shmups Dot Com's forum or MAME).




Tougher than all the above is DDP II, I think. This can either be written Bee Storm: Do Donpachi II, or Do Donpachi II: Bee Storm.

Hum. Not only that's not the original name for the game, it's not the Japanese form either, so maybe I'm not the best to answer but I'd definitely say the latter. Seems that the only reason one may supposedly have to write "Bee Storm: Do Donpachi II" is that "Bee Storm" has more "relevance" in the game logo, which is never an actual reason for anyone really used to this stuff.

Do never trust the interweb [for Japanese naming], seriously, especially the Western side of it.

3

Re: The transliteration thread

Recap escribió:

Donpachi
Do Donpachi
Do Donpachi Dai-Ou-Jou

Is the above correct, Recap?

Pretty much, I'd say. Being really picky: "Do Donpachi: Dai-Ou-Jou" is better.

Good suggestion, I'll go with that.




Or should I be writing "DonPachi"?

Why in the world should you? (And no, finding it in Wikipedia is not a valid reason, much less on Shmups Dot Com's forum or MAME).

No, I'd never trust MAME. The reason I bring this up is because on the cover of the PS port it's spelled "DonPachi" -- check it out. Good enough reason to adopt it?




Tougher than all the above is DDP II, I think. This can either be written Bee Storm: Do Donpachi II, or Do Donpachi II: Bee Storm.

Hum. Not only that's not the original name for the game, it's not the Japanese form either, so maybe I'm not the best to answer but I'd definitely say the latter. Seems that the only reason one may supposedly have to write "Bee Storm: Do Donpachi II" is that "Bee Storm" has more "relevance" in the game logo, which is never an actual reason for anyone really used to this stuff.

Do never trust the interweb [for Japanese naming], seriously, especially the Western side of it.

Again here, I didn't get my information from a website or forum. I just look at the flyers. The Taiwanese name I can't make out, so I am just looking at the Japanese/Western flyers. And yeah, the reason I am suggesting "Bee Storm: Do Donpachi II" is because in one flyer the "Bee Storm" is more promiment. But you are right, it doesn't make sense to adopt it just because they decided to draw it larger for aesthetic reasons or whatever. So I guess for the Japanese title I should use "Do Dodonpachi II: Bee Storm".

OR, "Do DonPachi II: Bee Storm"?

4

Re: The transliteration thread

icycalm escribió:

Or should I be writing "DonPachi"?

Why in the world should you? (And no, finding it in Wikipedia is not a valid reason, much less on Shmups Dot Com's forum or MAME).

No, I'd never trust MAME. The reason I bring this up is because on the cover of the PS port it's spelled "DonPachi" -- check it out. Good enough reason to adopt it?

Oh, I see, sorry... That's indeed the way it is "spelled" in the original logo, as I'm learning. But means nothing, if you ask me. Much like with "Bee Storm" and despite how odd may it sound, logos are never a good source for transliteration stuff. They take any kind of writing licence for artistic purposes, even if it opposes orthodox writing methods and common sense. We have a pretty close and edgy example I love with Esprade. I love it 'cause the interweb, you know, especially that formed up from the usual holier-than-you fanboys, persists on using something like "ESP Ra. De." since you can find that in the logo. The pile of shit that that implies from a linguistics point of view is so large I'd need a brand-new thread to explain it all, so I'll skip it and just say that something which (officially) is pronounced "esp-rade" can never be spelled "Esp Ra De", as anybody who just learned what a "word" is at school will know. It's that easy. Logos are, in many cases, made from writing licences which, for obvious reasons, aren't applicable out of them. At all.

"Camelcase" ("usage of capital letters in the middle of an [apparent] word") is, saving some very particular cases, just one more of those "writing licences for artistic/marketing purposes" which you need to construe, if you ask me. Usually, camelcase is just used to separate two different words, instead of the space (or the hyphen) between them. Could that be the case of "DonPachi"? It's possible, but one must be extremely careful with Japanese-to-romaji transliterations made by the Japanese authors themselves, you know. They just don't give a shit about correct romaji. Separating "donpachi" into "Don-Pachi" (once we agree we need to "construe" the logo spelling) is not incorrect at all (actually, is more "accurate" if we attend meaning), but is, say, less "orthodox", given the nature of the Japanese and its conception of words. Basically, the (constant) usage of kanji as "semantic groups" forms up "romaji" words. "Donpachi" has enough "entity" to be considered a single word, especially (and this is important) since "Do Donpachi" (etc.) does exist.

To sum it up, I'd use either "Donpachi", or "Don-Pachi", but _never_ "DonPachi".






So I guess for the Japanese title I should use "Do Dodonpachi II: Bee Storm".

Checking the title screen ( http://www.mameworld.net/maws/romset/ddp2 ) I'd say that that's not really the name for the Jap version.

5

Re: The transliteration thread

I hear you on the Esprade thing. Same with Espgaluda. There's just no explaining to those people how silly it is what they are doing.

Recap escribió:

To sum it up, I'd use either "Donpachi", or "Don-Pachi", but _never_ "DonPachi".

Fair enough, Donpachi it is then.

Recap escribió:

Checking the title screen ( http://www.mameworld.net/maws/romset/ddp2 ) I'd say that that's not really the name for the Jap version.

Actually there are no title screens in that link, but check here:

http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id … =3400#3400

Man, I have no idea which is which.

Also, related to the above, I have pretty much the same problem with all of IGS's games. I don't know where to find reliable transliterations from the original Chinese/Taiwanese/whatever titles.

http://insomnia.ac/archive/games/polygamemaster/

I asked Macaw to ask a friend of his who speaks Chinese, but it seems there are two ways to transcribe Chinese words? I am thinking that if you can't help me out with this I'll have to go with the English titles... Or else maybe send a PM to SAM on Shmups, who I think is from Taiwan...

6

Re: The transliteration thread

icycalm escribió:
Recap escribió:

Checking the title screen ( http://www.mameworld.net/maws/romset/ddp2 ) I'd say that that's not really the name for the Jap version.

Actually there are no title screens in that link, but check here:.

There are: Snapshots -> Title (1), (2), etc. Anyway, yours is better.




I don't believe "anybody" does to this date. But we can try:

By checking the copyright lines on those, there's only one which mentions Cave. If there's a Japanese version it has to be that. So we have that the Japanese version, in case of existing (which seems so), was simply titled "Do Donpachi II" (yeah, the kanji in the first title snapshot is read "Do Donpachi", though not an easy one).

As for the rest, seems quite obvious that the Western/US (whichever) title screen is the second one, while the third one is most likely the original Taiwanese version and the fourth one seems like a "rest-of-China" alternative version. It wouldn't surprise me if those gold-colored kanji forms in the latter screenshots are read "Bee Storm". Chinese don't have kana, you know, so they use kanji to transliterate foreign words. Then again, I'm clueless about Chinese, so. 




Also, related to the above, I have pretty much the same problem with all of IGS's games. I don't know where to find reliable transliterations from the original Chinese/Taiwanese/whatever titles.

Can't help you there, I'm afraid. Some I've compiled in release date order (not too reliable, though):


LONG HU BANG (?)   
CHUUGOKU RYUU II (?) / DRAGON WORLD II (?)
XI YO GI SHI RE ZUANG (?) / ORIENTAL LEGEND
GOUKEN KYOUTOU (?) / KILLING BLADE
XI YO GI SHI RE ZUANG SUPER (?) / ORIENTAL LEGEND SPECIAL (?)
XI YO GI SHI RE ZUANG QUN MO LUAN WU (?)   
CHUUGOKU RYUU III (?) / DRAGON WORLD III (?)
SANGOKU SENKI / KNIGHTS OF VALOUR
CHUUGOKU RYUU III SPECIAL (?) / DRAGON WORLD III SPECIAL (?)   
XING-YI QUEEN (?) / MARTIAL MASTERS   
CHUUGOKU RYUU IV (?) / DRAGON WORLD IV (?)

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Re: The transliteration thread

I guess that list you posted is a good start. I had no idea what these games were called in Chinese up to now. What I'll do is take it and try to find a couple of Chinese-speakers (preferably native) to go over it and suggest changes if necessary. I'll post here the results once they reply...

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Re: The transliteration thread

So hey, my turn now. This is from Greek to Roman alphabet, actually:

http://www.jp.playstation.com/jacket/l/slps02385.jpg

I transliterated that as "Kouklo Theatro", but want to make sure now I'm finishing the PS soft list for Postback's DB. Your opinion?

9

Re: The transliteration thread

lololol that is freaking awesome

Your transliteration is perfect, but note that in Greek it's one word: "Kouklotheatro".

10

Re: The transliteration thread

icycalm escribió:

Your transliteration is perfect, but note that in Greek it's one word:

So not "perfect" enough... Thanks. Meaning?






.

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Re: The transliteration thread

I am not sure of the English word, literary it means "Doll Theatre". You know, when you have a guy (or several, I guess) who use dolls and ventriloquism to imitate a theatre play. Puppet-play, perhaps?

12

Re: The transliteration thread

icycalm escribió:

Puppet-play, perhaps?

I guess. But regarding the Greek term, do you use it as one single word instead of two?






.

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Re: The transliteration thread

Yeah, there's no space when you write it and no pause when you pronounce it. It's a compound word.

14 (editado por icycalm 14-11-2007 21:52:27)

Re: The transliteration thread

Couple of questions for you Recap, when you have some time...

There's this MD game called Crying whose subtitle is giving me trouble. Full title: クライング 亜生命戦争. I know the last two kanji are "Sensou", but I am not sure about the first three. Emuasylum has it down as Crying: Asia Seimei Sensou.

Another thing I want to ask about is what to make of the URLs of official sites that are simply wrong. One recent example:

http://kyoryu-king.com/

The game's title would normally be rendered in English as Kodai Ouja Kyouryuu King, but clearly the developer's web designer thinks differently. What should I do in such cases? It seems to me that I should go with their version, much in the same way as we choose to write Radirgy and Karous instead of Rajirugi and Karasu...

15

Re: The transliteration thread

"Asia Seimei Sensou" is correct, yeah.

As for URL naming being official transliterations, I don't think they actually are (you already mentioned a couple of illustrative examples). There's a huge difference between "Kyoryu King" and "Karous" -- the latter is present in the game logo. My proceedings involve always using a "wapuro" transliteration unless the game logo shows us its own transliteration, which I'll take even if it's not entirely correct. In other words, the only official transliteration I'll accept as that is the one from game logos, not the ones from in-game stuff, nor those you find on the boxes, much less URLs'. One reason for it is that you can find many inconsistencies and contradictions, since they usually don't come from the original authors, nor anybody who really cares or matters (who gives a shit about "web designers", at the end).

"Kyoryu" is not totally wrong as a transliteration, anyways. You know, there's not an official, "perfectly universal" way to do this and seems that English people do prefer not to "mark" long vowels. To me, it's not a good approach, since in Japanese you indeed have "kyouryuu" _and_ "kyoryu", and they both sound quite differently. But marketing laws seem to dictate that the less the letters, the better, so Japanese companies usually skip long vowels from their names. Of course, I'll avoid that whenever they give me a chance, that is, every time they don't attach it in the game logo. I do try to be consistent, after all.

16

Re: The transliteration thread

Recap escribió:

To me, it's not a good approach, since in Japanese you indeed have "kyouryuu" _and_ "kyoryu", and they both sound quite differently.

Yeah, your thinking makes sense. The above reason is what convinces me to ignore URLs from now on. Thanks.

17 (editado por icycalm 25-11-2007 18:15:33)

Re: The transliteration thread

So, I've gathered a bunch of questions for you, Recap...

First off, it seems to me you're mistaken with the titles of the Etrian Odyssey and Izuna games.

Your versions:
Sekaijuu no Meikyuu
Kouma Ryoufu Den Izuna

The Japanese Wikipedia versions:
Sekaiju no Meikyuu
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/世界樹の迷宮
Gouma Reifu Den Izuna
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/降魔霊符伝イヅナ


Next, I'd like to ask you how you transliterate the title of that Takoron Naomi game. My version is No-Kone Puzzle Takoron (のーコネパズル たころん), but Wikipedia calls it Noumiso Konekone Puzzle Takoron... I know they are wrong, but I am not sure my version is 100% correct either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octomania
http://www.compileheart.com/tako/ron.html

I am also not 100% sure about the Wii port. I've got it down as Sharuui~☆Takoron (しゃるうぃ~☆たころん). Should I keep the star or what?

http://www.compileheart.com/wii/takoron.html


Lastly, KOF Neowave. Is it Neowave, NeoWave or Neo Wave? The current North American champion prefers NeoWave, but what does he know? I see you got it down as two words, but I think I prefer one word... My main issue is with whether to capitalize the W...


On another note, your PS list is totally awesome, though the lack of an alphabetical listing makes finding specific games a bit hard. Not that I mind the extra effort -- just saying. Also, your idea of using all-caps for the English titles is a very smart one, I think. I might start doing the same on my frontpage...

18

Re: The transliteration thread

icycalm escribió:

So, I've gathered a bunch of questions for you, Recap...

First off, it seems to me you're mistaken with the titles of the Etrian Odyssey and Izuna games.

Your versions:
Sekaijuu no Meikyuu
Kouma Ryoufu Den Izuna

The Japanese Wikipedia versions:
Sekaiju no Meikyuu
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/世界樹の迷宮

Absolutely. My mistake. It's a short "-u".




降 can be read as either, "kou" or "go", so we'd have either, "Kouma" or "Goma" (as far as I could reach). 霊 can be read as "rei", "ryo" or "tama". I took "ryo" 'cause "ryofu" is more usual than "reifu"... This is one of those game titles which you can't be sure about its pronounciation unless you find the official furigana somewhere, so then again, seems I was wrong. Thanks!



Next, I'd like to ask you how you transliterate the title of that Takoron Naomi game. My version is No-Kone Puzzle Takoron (のーコネパズル たころん), but Wikipedia calls it Noumiso Konekone Puzzle Takoron... I know they are wrong, but I am not sure my version is 100% correct either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octomania
http://www.compileheart.com/tako/ron.html

Seems this game modified its name a little bit at some point. Check this:

http://www.am-j.co.jp/newmachine/200609/002.html

"Noomiso Kone-Kone Puzzle Takoron".

The official site uses "Noo-Kone Puzzle Takoron" currently, which looks like an abbreviation of the former name (that's why I'm using the hyphen here; "Noo-Kone" is a compound word).





I am also not 100% sure about the Wii port. I've got it down as Sharuui~☆Takoron (しゃるうぃ~☆たころん). Should I keep the star or what?

Hard question, I'm afraid. If you're asking if you should keep the star as it is (that is, as a sign), then, quick answer -- never ever. That's not orthodox writing, after all, whichever the language we're talking about.

But if you're asking if you should transliterate it too (that is, "Sharuuii Star Takoron"), well, then, I don't know. Normally you should (Guilty Gear # Reload /   ->   Guilty Gear Sharp Reload Slash, Street Fighter II'   ->   Street Fighter II Dash...). The ☆ is much the same, but _sometimes_ it's not intended to be part of the actual name, so you must be careful.

Notice I wrote "Sharuuii". That ~ you have there is a "chouonfu", a "long-vowel mark", much like ー.




Lastly, KOF Neowave. Is it Neowave, NeoWave or Neo Wave? The current North American champion prefers NeoWave, but what does he know? I see you got it down as two words, but I think I prefer one word... My main issue is with whether to capitalize the W...

There, quick answer too -- don't. I think I've let you know my opinion on this. Capitalizing a letter in the middle of a word is not orthodox writing. It's nice and fun as logo stuff, but nothing else. Try to answer yourself why you're wondering about "capitalizing the W"...





On another note, your PS list is totally awesome, though the lack of an alphabetical listing makes finding specific games a bit hard. Not that I mind the extra effort -- just saying.

Thanks. So your suggestion is...?





Also, your idea of using all-caps for the English titles is a very smart one, I think.

I think I'm missing something! Your point?

19 (editado por icycalm 27-11-2007 20:24:42)

Re: The transliteration thread

Recap escribió:

Seems this game modified its name a little bit at some point. Check this:

http://www.am-j.co.jp/newmachine/200609/002.html

"Noomiso Kone-Kone Puzzle Takoron".

The official site uses "Noo-Kone Puzzle Takoron" currently, which looks like an abbreviation of the former name (that's why I'm using the hyphen here; "Noo-Kone" is a compound word).

Interesting. To be honest, I am still not clear on the use of the hyphen. Can you give me some easier to understand examples of when it's proper to use it? The only ones I can think of are with "san" and "sama"...


Recap escribió:

Hard question, I'm afraid. If you're asking if you should keep the star as it is (that is, as a sign), then, quick answer -- never ever. That's not orthodox writing, after all, whichever the language we're talking about.

But if you're asking if you should transliterate it too (that is, "Sharuuii Star Takoron"), well, then, I don't know. Normally you should (Guilty Gear # Reload /   ->   Guilty Gear Sharp Reload Slash, Street Fighter II'   ->   Street Fighter II Dash...). The ☆ is much the same, but _sometimes_ it's not intended to be part of the actual name, so you must be careful.

Fair enough. In this case I'll go without the star.


Recap escribió:

Notice I wrote "Sharuuii". That ~ you have there is a "chouonfu", a "long-vowel mark", much like ー.

That's the first time I hear of this. And why do they not just use an extra vowel, since it's in hiragana?


Recap escribió:

Thanks. So your suggestion is...?

Well, ideally there should be an option to sort the games any way you'd like to: by publisher, date, genre, etc. But if you don't have a database in place then I think the most sensible option would be to list them alphabetically...


Recap escribió:

I think I'm missing something! Your point?

Well, using all-caps is one way to avoid the problem of whether to capitalize some letters in the title. But I think I now understand that this should almost never be done, so I guess it makes no difference.

20

Re: The transliteration thread

icycalm escribió:
Recap escribió:

Seems this game modified its name a little bit at some point. Check this:

http://www.am-j.co.jp/newmachine/200609/002.html

"Noomiso Kone-Kone Puzzle Takoron".

The official site uses "Noo-Kone Puzzle Takoron" currently, which looks like an abbreviation of the former name (that's why I'm using the hyphen here; "Noo-Kone" is a compound word).

Interesting. To be honest, I am still not clear on the use of the hyphen. Can you give me some easier to understand examples of when it's proper to use it? The only ones I can think of are with "san" and "sama"...

Pretty much, it's the same reason behind indeed. Forget Japanese, this is Roman-based writing. Let's take English, for instance. Think of terms like "self-publishing", "twenty-five" or "hyphen-minus" -- compound words use a hyphen to mark its origin.

When you're transliterating into a Roman-based alphabet, you must follow its own rules, no matter what the original language does (especially when the writing codes have nothing to do each other). There are hundreds of examples of this very trend from Japanese authors of our days: Mamoru-kun ha Norowarete Shimatta! -> Mamo-Noro, Saturn Collection -> Sata-Kore, Winning Eleven -> Ui-Ire... "Noomiso Kone-Kone Puzzle" into "Noo-Kone Puzzle" is exactly the same. I don't know how the Japanese authors would like the romaji forms for those examples. Not that I care if I want to set a general rule, either. Compound words (especially if they're as arbitrary as this brand-new naming thingies) go with an in-between hyphen in my Roman-based language, much like a ☆ is never a conventional sign in my Roman-based language.




Recap escribió:

Hard question, I'm afraid. If you're asking if you should keep the star as it is (that is, as a sign), then, quick answer -- never ever. That's not orthodox writing, after all, whichever the language we're talking about.

But if you're asking if you should transliterate it too (that is, "Sharuuii Star Takoron"), well, then, I don't know. Normally you should (Guilty Gear # Reload /   ->   Guilty Gear Sharp Reload Slash, Street Fighter II'   ->   Street Fighter II Dash...). The ☆ is much the same, but _sometimes_ it's not intended to be part of the actual name, so you must be careful.

Fair enough. In this case I'll go without the star.

But don't forget to transliterate it for now, though. As I told you, the cases when it's not actual part of the name are the minority.





Recap escribió:

Notice I wrote "Sharuuii". That ~ you have there is a "chouonfu", a "long-vowel mark", much like ー.

That's the first time I hear of this. And why do they not just use an extra vowel, since it's in hiragana?

A "chouonfu" is hiragana too. It's up to the user whether if using it or writing an "extra vowel".





Recap escribió:

Thanks. So your suggestion is...?

Well, ideally there should be an option to sort the games any way you'd like to: by publisher, date, genre, etc.

Indeed!




But if you don't have a database in place

Certainly!




then I think the most sensible option would be to list them alphabetically...

I agree to disagree there. For someone who does know the game name and just want to verify transliteration, or knowing release date, whatever, you're right. But what about those who indeed want the name of the games released in 1997, for instance? Release-date order can be very useful, I believe, but also entertaining. Try it out!

Keep in mind it's a full, single-paged list, anyway. You can always use the search tool of your browser ("street fighter", "nippon ichi", "neg-con"...). Not everybody can say that about their soft lists!

21 (editado por icycalm 29-11-2007 20:03:48)

Re: The transliteration thread

Recap escribió:

When you're transliterating into a Roman-based alphabet, you must follow its own rules, no matter what the original language does (especially when the writing codes have nothing to do each other). There are hundreds of examples of this very trend from Japanese authors of our days: Mamoru-kun ha Norowarete Shimatta! -> Mamo-Noro, Saturn Collection -> Sata-Kore, Winning Eleven -> Ui-Ire... "Noomiso Kone-Kone Puzzle" into "Noo-Kone Puzzle" is exactly the same. I don't know how the Japanese authors would like the romaji forms for those examples. Not that I care if I want to set a general rule, either. Compound words (especially if they're as arbitrary as this brand-new naming thingies) go with an in-between hyphen in my Roman-based language, much like a ☆ is never a conventional sign in my Roman-based language.

I see what you are saying. However, I do have a couple of objections. First off, have you seen any Japanese sites write "Mamo-Noro", "Sata-Kore" and "Ui-Ire"? In English I mean...

If not, I will prefer to not use a hyphen in these cases... I don't know man, Mamo-Noro seems very unnatural to me. It doesn't seem at all like the same thing as Mushihime-sama. I understand 100% why you would choose to make this rule universal on your website, but in this case I think I will make an exception to that rule on my website and go without the hyphen for compound titles where the developers themselves do not use a hyphen in their own transliterations...


Re: the star in Takoron:

Recap escribió:

But don't forget to transliterate it for now, though. As I told you, the cases when it's not actual part of the name are the minority.

Again here I see what you are saying, but it just seems very unnatural to me to write "Sharuuii Star Takoron". Just as I would never write Guilty Gear XX Sharp Reload or Namco Cross Capcom. I mean, yeah, that's how you pronounce the names, but both English and Japanese have the # and x characters, so why not just leave them as is? And tell people how to pronounce them in a parenthesis, if you have to...



A "chouonfu" is hiragana too. It's up to the user whether if using it or writing an "extra vowel".

I read up on this and found another example:

http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id … age=9#1690

What do you think about this game? Pocchitto Nyaa? At least the "to" should be separate.



Recap escribió:

I agree to disagree there. For someone who does know the game name and just want to verify transliteration, or knowing release date, whatever, you're right. But what about those who indeed want the name of the games released in 1997, for instance? Release-date order can be very useful, I believe, but also entertaining. Try it out!

Keep in mind it's a full, single-paged list, anyway. You can always use the search tool of your browser ("street fighter", "nippon ichi", "neg-con"...). Not everybody can say that about their soft lists!

True enough. But both of us should really get databases up and running eventually and solve this issue once and for all, because the more content we keep adding to the sites the more essential a database becomes. Too bad I've no idea how to do it, and no time to learn!

22

Re: The transliteration thread

icycalm escribió:

I see what you are saying. However, I do have a couple of objections. First off, have you seen any Japanese sites write "Mamo-Noro", "Sata-Kore" and "Ui-Ire"? In English I mean...

"Any Japanese sites"? I know you know at this point that Japanese are totally careless and useless for romanization stuff, so what's the point? Anyhow, yeah. Not sure about which examples exactly, but Japanese do "transliterate" so sometimes. They even separate them into two different words -- "Sata Kore", etc. But as I was saying, do never trust Japanese for transliteration rules, especially in regard to morphology stuff. It's a good advice, believe me.





If not, I will prefer to not use a hyphen in these cases... I don't know man, Mamo-Noro seems very unnatural to me. It doesn't seem at all like the same thing as Mushihime-sama.

Believe it or not, it's exactly the same thing. The only reason to write "Mushihime-sama" with a hyphen is because it's a compound word. And the truth is, despite recent usages and whatnot, that putting a hyphen is the most "natural" way to write compound words. Do whatever you want but, for you own good, consolidate. Write "Mushihimesama" if you are going to write "Mamonoro". Not that any of them are "incorrect", anyways...





Re: the star in Takoron:

Again here I see what you are saying, but it just seems very unnatural to me to write "Sharuuii Star Takoron". Just as I would never write Guilty Gear XX Sharp Reload or Namco Cross Capcom. I mean, yeah, that's how you pronounce the names, but both English and Japanese have the # and x characters, so why not just leave them as is?

Man, if we'd stick to that which seems more "natural" to us, we'd still be saying "PC Kid" instead of "PC Genjin" or "Super CD-ROM" instead of "Super CD-ROM-ROM", which are only two lovely examples of this analphabetism trend the Western media have been building up all these years.

Whatever. Nor English nor Japanese have "the # and x characters" actually. Indeed, when you're writing a # when you mean "sharp" or an x when you mean "cross", you're not using either, Japanese nor English. It's hard to me to explain this in English, you know... They are "language licenses", "borrowed forms" and, indeed, "writing jokes". Much like camelcase, or the lack of capital letters heading proper names, etc, etc, it's not acceptable for a proper, correct writing. That's why you'll find  シャープ instead of # and クロス instead of x when you get to the game names written in Japanese, if you want a tangible argument.

Not to mention スター in the case of ☆, of course.





A "chouonfu" is hiragana too. It's up to the user whether if using it or writing an "extra vowel".

I read up on this and found another example:

http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id … age=9#1690

What do you think about this game? Pocchitto Nyaa? At least the "to" should be separate.

Obviously. Even the official Western name is "Pochi and (= to) Nyaa". I'm going to destroy another of those transliteration myths for you, by the way. Correct transliteration for ...ッチ... is not "cch", but "tch". Think about it -- ッ is actually about "reinforcing the following sound", not about a mere "consonant duplicity". "Pocchi" is read "pok-chi", which is nothing like the original word's pronounciation. "Potchi", on the other hand...

23

Re: The transliteration thread

Recap escribió:

"Any Japanese sites"? I know you know at this point that Japanese are totally careless and useless for romanization stuff, so what's the point? Anyhow, yeah. Not sure about which examples exactly, but Japanese do "transliterate" so sometimes. They even separate them into two different words -- "Sata Kore", etc. But as I was saying, do never trust Japanese for transliteration rules, especially in regard to morphology stuff. It's a good advice, believe me.

I meant official sites. So if I saw for example Mamo-Noro on the official site I would write Mamo-Noro, but if I didn't see anything I would be free to make up my own mind about it.



Recap escribió:

Believe it or not, it's exactly the same thing. The only reason to write "Mushihime-sama" with a hyphen is because it's a compound word. And the truth is, despite recent usages and whatnot, that putting a hyphen is the most "natural" way to write compound words. Do whatever you want but, for you own good, consolidate. Write "Mushihimesama" if you are going to write "Mamonoro". Not that any of them are "incorrect", anyways...

This is the point. None of them are incorrect, and I guess it would indeed be more consistent to either use the hyphen in both cases or in none, but I could also make a rule with exceptions in it. The san, sama, kun, chan, etc. could be the exceptions.

Perhaps I need to give myself some time to the idea of a hyphen in all compound words. I tend to be quite conservative with things like this, but, given time, if something makes sense, I tend to adjust my views accordingly. For example, just earlier today I was updating the sidebar on my site, and I came across this game:

http://www.gae.co.jp/game/monoshiri/sen … kutop.html

Which I transliterated as "Monoshiri Sengoku-Ou" because I remembered this discussion (I hope I didn't make some fat-ass mistake!)

So perhaps if I allow some more time for this to sink in I might eventually be able to write Mamo-Noro. (And good luck to me trying to explain this to any shmups fans who ask me the reason!)



Recap escribió:

Whatever. Nor English nor Japanese have "the # and x characters" actually. Indeed, when you're writing a # when you mean "sharp" or an x when you mean "cross", you're not using either, Japanese nor English. It's hard to me to explain this in English, you know... They are "language licenses", "borrowed forms" and, indeed, "writing jokes". Much like camelcase, or the lack of capital letters heading proper names, etc, etc, it's not acceptable for a proper, correct writing. That's why you'll find  シャープ instead of # and クロス instead of x when you get to the game names written in Japanese, if you want a tangible argument.

It is true, I have seen this many times. On the spine of Wild Arms XF it says Wild Arms Cross Fire, Namco Cross Capcom, etc. etc.

I just don't know if I can post a review on my front page that says "Namco Cross Capcom"... I know it's a stupid argument, but I think it would look silly. Plus, I would dread making a url like http://insomnia.ac/reviews/playstation2 … osscapcom/ because if I changed my mind later on I'd be stuck with it.

Man, this stuff sucks. I wish I didn't have to worry about it and I could just review games.


Recap escribió:

Obviously. Even the official Western name is "Pochi and (= to) Nyaa". I'm going to destroy another of those transliteration myths for you, by the way. Correct transliteration for ...ッチ... is not "cch", but "tch". Think about it -- ッ is actually about "reinforcing the following sound", not about a mere "consonant duplicity". "Pocchi" is read "pok-chi", which is nothing like the original word's pronounciation. "Potchi", on the other hand...

Yeah, I am with you there. "tch" is definitely preferable to "cch".

24

Re: The transliteration thread

icycalm escribió:

I meant official sites. So if I saw for example Mamo-Noro on the official site I would write Mamo-Noro, but if I didn't see anything I would be free to make up my own mind about it.

So perhaps if I allow some more time for this to sink in I might eventually be able to write Mamo-Noro. (And good luck to me trying to explain this to any shmups fans who ask me the reason!)

Is it that you have seen "Mamonoro" anywhere? 'Cause I really can't understand where's the problem with "Mamo-Noro" besides the people's laziness to write hyphens these days...!





Recap escribió:

Believe it or not, it's exactly the same thing. The only reason to write "Mushihime-sama" with a hyphen is because it's a compound word. And the truth is, despite recent usages and whatnot, that putting a hyphen is the most "natural" way to write compound words. Do whatever you want but, for you own good, consolidate. Write "Mushihimesama" if you are going to write "Mamonoro". Not that any of them are "incorrect", anyways...

This is the point. None of them are incorrect, and I guess it would indeed be more consistent to either use the hyphen in both cases or in none, but I could also make a rule with exceptions in it.

Of course. But you know, exceptions to a rule must be supported by some reason. And again, I fail to see the issue with hyphens for compound words.




Perhaps I need to give myself some time to the idea of a hyphen in all compound words. I tend to be quite conservative with things like this, but, given time, if something makes sense, I tend to adjust my views accordingly. For example, just earlier today I was updating the sidebar on my site, and I came across this game:

http://www.gae.co.jp/game/monoshiri/sen … kutop.html

Which I transliterated as "Monoshiri Sengoku-Ou" because I remembered this discussion (I hope I didn't make some fat-ass mistake!)

Looks alright to me (though the full name seems to be "Rekishi Gunzou Presents Monoshiri Sengoku-Ou"). It's a different case, anyhow. You can consider "Sengoku Ou" as two separated words and write it so.

25

Re: The transliteration thread

Recap escribió:

Is it that you have seen "Mamonoro" anywhere? 'Cause I really can't understand where's the problem with "Mamo-Noro" besides the people's laziness to write hyphens these days...!

No, I mean the other way around. That is to say, I would only use the hyphen if I saw it written on an official site.


Recap escribió:

Of course. But you know, exceptions to a rule must be supported by some reason. And again, I fail to see the issue with hyphens for compound words.

The exception to the rule would be the hyphen in sama, san, kun, etc. The rule would be "no hyphens for compound words". As for the reason for this exception... actually I just came up with a pretty good one.

When Japanese people pronounce the sama, san, kun, etc. there is an audible pause between the name and the honorific, correct? So they say Mushihime sama, not Mushihimesama. But when they pronounce Mamonoro they say it as one word. That's why I would not like to use a hyphen.

Again, this is my current thinking. It's a very delicate issue and I might change my mind at any moment. After all, I just recently started thinking about it... But in any case I take everything you say into consideration.




Looks alright to me (though the full name seems to be "Rekishi Gunzou Presents Monoshiri Sengoku-Ou"). It's a different case, anyhow. You can consider "Sengoku Ou" as two separated words and write it so.

I know the full name is much longer, but on the sidebar I try to shorten long names to fit in a single line. These are temporary links to official pages anyway, so having the full correct title is not that important.