51

Re: Low-res screenshots

Recap escribió:

I've learned that the 640 x 400 mode of these is not 31 kHz, but 24 kHz. That technically is not 'high resolution', but 'extended resolution', as some put it.

400 lines is a little more than 24 kHz. At this frequency, you can only display 384 lines. It must be 25 kHz (400 active lines + sync lines). But yeah, it's a minor detail. ^^'

In CRT technology, the frequency is the most important indication for resolution because it determines how many lines you can display in a fixed area. The higer the frequency, the little space between lines, so the better the picture looks. Remember than nobody but us, video game addicts, likes black horizontal lines in their display. ^_^
Everybody else try everything possible to remove those lines (de-interlacing, line doubling, line trippling etc.).

400 lines in the full height of a 4/3 screen have most space between lines than 400 lines with black border such as in the graphics displayed by the PC-98. Those 400 actives lines have the same space than a genuine 640x480 picture. The hardware could have run at 31 kHz with lots of sync lines or black borders via software, you couldn't tell the difference.


Macaw escribió:

Anyway, in the case of most PC88 stuff and some of the 98 stuff, Its incredibly bizarre that they had to design stuff in 640x200, knowing that the height will be doubled.

Recap escribió:

I hardly believe that they used square pixels-based video hardware in the early years to design game graphics. They most likely used hardware capable of the same video modes as the target platforms -- remember that work stations and PCs weren't always like they are today and that there was a era where the pixels' aspect ratio was indeed a quite changeable thing thanks to CRT technology.

It's cheaper to increase horizontal size than vertical. Because with horizontal increase, you only need memory. With vertical increase, you need memory AND higher frequency hardware (higher bandwidth).

Back then, nobody cared about square pixel, because CRT technology is very flexible (on each scanned line, you can display whatever number of pixels you want, according to the maximum pixel clock available). Square pixel is a thing from the begining of HD era (back in early 1990's), in an effort to standardize everything. Fixed resolution panels heavily supported this movement.


Recap escribió:

Pasting here the promised PC88 Dios screenshot at its native res with 15 kHz video hardware. This is how the game looked like originally on the PC88:

http://i30.tinypic.com/2v8k9oy.jpg

Notice, despite the blurry pic (I was out of luck this time), that it has little to do with what you get with standard PC video hardware. Graphics look almost like a 16-bit console game.

C'mon boy, you need more practice (and follow my advices) ! ^^

Look at this:

http://raster.effect.free.fr/tv/Photos_ … 200_02.jpg

( [>] smaller version )


Other stuffs :

http://raster.effect.free.fr/tv/Photos_CRT_3/

Haaaaa... nothing can beats a true 15 kHz display ! :D

52 (editado por Eboshidori 15-07-2010 02:08:56)

Re: Low-res screenshots

Recap escribió:

I hear you on the KOF XII subject. I'm still to see how the game works with the system set at 480p and a 31-kHz monitor, though it can't do the background graphics any good, so I'm not holding my breath. What a waste...

What a PURE WASTE ! The most important things, on which you have your eyes every seconds, are the sprites. You can't take time to notice every little details in the background, while being able to perfectly know that the background has lot of detail (your eyes can't analyse every detail individualy, but can percieve the fact that there are lot of informations globaly).

And more importantly, you can play the game that way since the system (either, the 3-60 or the Type X 2) does support 480p. Your samples are great and necessary for showing everybody that KOF XII's graphics are ruined by lame design decisions and a full-of-shit technology

Yeah, they support 480p, but not with the maximum quality (ie: non filtred display).

The graphics of KOF XII are ruined first because of lack of 2D technology. Since many years, no hardware can display sprites anymore, everything is "flat 3D". That means lack of power and memory where 2D graphics need it.

I'm pretty sure SNK-P really began the sprites at 720p (like BlazBlue). But they quickly realised it wasn't possible to achieve the quality they wanted (lots of shades and frames). So they reduced the size (half the size), and relied on filtred shitty tricks.

When I saw Ryo's face for the first time (I expect it was one of the early fighter they started with), with a "missing line" for his mouth (as it can occur with 50% nearest neighbor resizing), I immediatly thought it.
If the sprite have been genuinely designed at 360p, the graphist would not have skipped this special line.

KOF sprites are great, even if they are only "360p". That wouldn't have been a problem if there were multi-sync large 16/9 CRTs in arcades (and at consumer level). But instead, we jump from 4/3 CRT to HD flat screens.

If KOF XII would have come in a nice 16/9 cab' at 24 Khz, everybody would have notice the gorgeous graphics, with lots of vibrant colors, great shadow and lightning effects, smooth animation... Resolution isn't every thing in a quality picture. But for many years, people are brainwashed to believe that resolution is the most important thing. They want so hardly flat screens with high number of pixels, but shitty screens that LOST their sharpness as soon as something moves (because cells are to slow to react fast enough to follow the animation). They want screens with "crystal clear picture", but screens that are 99% of time feeded with non-native signals (blurry picture). Well, I already talked about that...


and hopefully you'll create with them some short of a virtual museum in order to let the internet see and take notes, but... just that.

I expect more than that... ^^'
I expect hacked dash boards that allow non filtred downscaling, and other resolutions (853x480 for example).

Man, on this fucking generation of hardware, almost nothing is done at the native resolutions of HD standards. And when it's done, the graphics are less sophisticated than those done at "sub-HD internal res".


I do really wonder if there's not a true 768-lines mode on this game. Blaz Blue has it, and Type X 2's most common mode is WXGA, given the arcade monitor standards.

BlazBlue is 1280x768. WXGA is 1366x768. Even on the original hardware in a brand new cab, it is fuckin' upscaled and filtred (at least, only in the horizontal direction)... But anyway, BlazBlue sprites are always displayed at 1:1 pixel mapping, weither the height of the screen is 720 (for 1280x720 panels) or 768. The back grounds are in 3D, so it's easy to resize.

KOF is "pure" 2D. If you could set the game at 768p, that would mean that the backgrounds are cropped when you see them at 720p. But no, there do not exist extra pixels beyond 720p. The window of the graphics is 1280x720, what ever screen will display it. Since there are barely flat screen at this exact resolution, you will always have your "crystal clear" picture (:P) upscaled and filtred, in association with the internal blurring of the sprites... Aw shit... where is my hammer ? ]:) 


I'm sure there'll be an option to remove the filter (at least for home versions), but in the end, same issue as in XII -- you can't play the game and please your eyes at the same time.

I don't think so. For KOF XII, since the sprite have an exactly 200% upscaling (round number, constant pixel size), they considered the option of disabling the filters, but for KOF XIII, if you display the sprites without filtring them, they will look fuckin ugly with enormous jaggies. They will look uglier than those unfiltred in KOF XII.

The only correct way to display the game without filtred or jaggy sprites is to set the resolution at 853x480 (and have a display that can resolve this resolution without artifact... Some old plasmas, and of course CRTs).



The truth is that I love the slight 'melting' with bright red lines and whatnot. I'm so used to it that I like to think of it as a particularity of CRT displays (and indeed I miss it in your photographs). But I can understand that, while it may help the overall visual enjoyment depending on your tastes, it goes against pure 'pixel analysis', yeah.

I understand that, but when the ultimate goal will be reached (perfect CRT simulation), you can have shitload of options to mess the screen (adding misconvergence errors, set-up the screen out of focus, overdrive the red gun etc.). But FIRST, it's important to achieve the perfect thing, the top, so after that, you can easily "go down".

If you consider bad set-up as the main thing, it won't be possible to go beyond that... And that's why most people interested on this difficult subject are all wrong, and can hardly propose something decent...
(well, by now, some dude might have reached some good point, but they still lack the essential knowledge of CRT, and are still far from the perfection).



Looking forward to it, though you need too big resolutions for that and you know web design requirements... Nevertheless, your ultimate goal is solving to some degree the emulation-related issue, isn't it?

The goal is to solve the emulation matter, and offer a scaling algorithm that allows developper to continue to create pixel art in the fixed resolution HD era.
Beyond that, it could even help to play old video games on modern screen (because CRTs won't last forever...) with top quality visual and with almost inexisting lag (about 1/60 second, something barely noticeable, and way better than any scan-converter available now,).


About web design requirements, I'm working on it, but even the large resolution you propose (about 1280x960) is barely enough to show something accurate. Even the best picture I take from a real CRT can't show enough detail when reduce around 960p, either one way or the other...

The best I can reach by now is that:

http://raster.effect.free.fr/tv/Photos_ … na_02f.jpg


Note that this picture is taken from a low curvature Trinitron (no cheating, it's a real old 29" low-res tube, not a computer one! :P ), from 3m from the screen. The curvature seems very low at this distance, and the focus of the picture is good even for corners.

Each time I try to go under that, the picture shows lots of artifacts ([>] like this...).
I can reduce that with a little bit of horizontal blurr, but anyway, the picture will always loose the smallest details of the surface of the CRT screen (i.e. the phosphore layout).

Damn, do you realise it ? All those fuckin "High Resolution crystal clear" screens of today can't show the magnificence of a low-res picture tube at one time... :P :P :P

The best way is to provide full shots with a necessary lack of phoshore layout (something that seems too much  "clean" to you), and propose shots of small parts of the action. Something that can shows the greatness of pixel art displayed by CRT, like [>] this or [>] this, maybe...

53

Re: Low-res screenshots

Eboshidori escribió:

BlazBlue is 1280x768. WXGA is 1366x768.

Seems 1280 x 768 is also 'WXGA':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vecto … dards2.svg

So they did use a known standard at least. Still stupid enough given that both, Vewlix' monitors and HD-ready TVs are 1360 x 768.



KOF is "pure" 2D. If you could set the game at 768p, that would mean that the backgrounds are cropped when you see them at 720p. But no, there do not exist extra pixels beyond 720p.

So you have already confirmed that? The shit's getting dumber and dumber. Do you know what's the default setting for the arcade version assuming it's on a Vewlix cab? Stretch to 768 lines for a full-screen display or native 720 for two black borders?



I'm sure there'll be an option to remove the filter (at least for home versions), but in the end, same issue as in XII -- you can't play the game and please your eyes at the same time.

I don't think so. For KOF XII, since the sprite have an exactly 200% upscaling (round number, constant pixel size), they considered the option of disabling the filters, but for KOF XIII, if you display the sprites without filtring them, they will look fuckin ugly with enormous jaggies. They will look uglier than those unfiltred in KOF XII.

Not that it seems to be something they'll be concerned about, if you ask me.





The best I can reach by now is that:

http://raster.effect.free.fr/tv/Photos_ … na_02f.jpg


Note that this picture is taken from a low curvature Trinitron (no cheating, it's a real old 29" low-res tube, not a computer one! :P ), from 3m from the screen. The curvature seems very low at this distance, and the focus of the picture is good even for corners.

Each time I try to go under that, the picture shows lots of artifacts ([>] like this...).
I can reduce that with a little bit of horizontal blurr, but anyway, the picture will always loose the smallest details of the surface of the CRT screen (i.e. the phosphore layout).

Damn, do you realise it ? All those fuckin "High Resolution crystal clear" screens of today can't show the magnificence of a low-res picture tube at one time... :P :P :P

The best way is to provide full shots with a necessary lack of phoshore layout (something that seems too much  "clean" to you), and propose shots of small parts of the action. Something that can shows the greatness of pixel art displayed by CRT, like [>] this or [>] this, maybe...

I guess I can't have everything. The bigger the rez, the more accurate the screenshots get, no wonder, but serves nothing if you need to downscale them in order to display it on your monitor. For game analysis, you need to show full screenshots, think about it. And I'm not disatisfied with the results I got, as I told you. Once I get them less blurry, that is.

54 (editado por Eboshidori 18-07-2010 01:10:50)

Re: Low-res screenshots

Recap escribió:

So you have already confirmed that? The shit's getting dumber and dumber. Do you know what's the default setting for the arcade version assuming it's on a Vewlix cab? Stretch to 768 lines for a full-screen display or native 720 for two black borders?

The Taito TypeX² has no HDMI ports. It uses VGA and DVI ports. 720p is not a XGA standard, nor suited for DVI (only dual-link DVI supports one of the HD resolution: 1080p. 720p isn't available. Everything for DVI comes from the XGA standard). The TypeX² never sends 720p signal, and nobody who actually played the game on arcades notices black borders on top and bottom of the screen (and I didn't saw any pictures of the cab showing the game with black borders).
So, KOF XII (and XIII), while being developped at 1280x720, is NEVER seen at its native resolution. In arcades, the game is stretched internally at 768p (1280x768), then stretched by the screen to 1366x768. Yeah...

That means the only way to display a "HD crystal clear" picture of the game is to use a home version (that can send true 720p signal) and use a true 1280x720 screen. Well, let's say that nobody have never seen the game with the maximum quality (i.e : non blurred picture), and nobody will ever do it.

You would say it's crazy, and very dumb. And it is.



Furthermore, notice that lots of screenshots you see on websites are fuckin' upscaled !!!

When you go to some big gaming sites, they show you some little screenshots of the game and propose you a " full size " option, clearly telling you it is native resolution. Wrong ! In many cases, it's an upscaled version from an "editor screenshot" (because they choose to send downscaled screenshots instead of something matching the actual resolution of the game).


See that:

BlazBlue screenshots (home version)...
http://uk.media.xbox360.ign.com/media/1 … mgs_1.html


One of the "full size" screenshot :
http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/dor/objects/1 … =mediaFull

Even if the picture size is "1280x720", it's upscaled !!! O.o


Here's a true native res' screenshot for comparizon:

http://jeux-video.portail.free.fr/previ … s3-045.jpg

Nobody never notices it !

Look at all the BlazBlue screenshots from Ign.com page, they are almost all upscaled. They are 1024x756 or 1024x614 screenshots at the begining.

You see the early "Hardcops:Uprising" screenshots at 720p?... Upscaled !!! :P :P


This is normal that almost nobody notices it, because even if people use "crystal clear" displays, they are used to blurry pictures, because their screens are almost never feeded at their native res', and anyway, as soon as something moves on the screen, it gets blurred (because LCD cells are too slow).






I guess I can't have everything. The bigger the rez, the more accurate the screenshots get, no wonder, but serves nothing if you need to downscale them in order to display it on your monitor. For game analysis, you need to show full screenshots, think about it. And I'm not disatisfied with the results I got, as I told you. Once I get them less blurry, that is.

I tried to take the best and sharpest pictures, tried several way to resize them, but at the end, it's the same problem: there aren't enough pixel to show enough details.

To take sharper pictures of the CRT screen, remember it's a question of shutter speed and underexposure. Try to find the good set-up to, to have low levels, just enough to be able to recover them.

55 (editado por Eboshidori 18-07-2010 01:45:25)

Re: Low-res screenshots

By the way, another exemple of dumb scaling:

Ketsui port on XBox 360.

Well, how display the PGM resolution (448x224) in a 640x480 window, for those who wants to set their system at 480i, to plug it into a 15kHz 4/3 CRT ?
As usual, let's do some irregular stretch an blurr it !!
Considering that this resolution (640x480) is meant for 4/3 CRT, and not for 16/9 HD LCD with fixed resolution, they could have done it way better: they should have double the height of the screen (224x2=448) with nearest neighbor option (no filtring) and do nothing to the horziontal size. So, you display a 448x448 picture in a 640x480 windows. You just have to change the horizontal size in the chassis of your CRT, a perfect stretch with no loss of quality (thanx to the flexibility of the raster).

There are several ways to disable the interlacing of the picture (because the 360 can't do it, 480i is the lowest it can do): some chassis allow it (in arcade monitors and consumer TVs) , some scan-converter do it too.

Of course, this way of display Ketsui isn't available, and will never be (it could be done via some software patch, but nobody [ but me :P ] will demand it, and Cave won't do it even if there were enough people to demand it...).

While you can disable the interlacing of the game, anyway you will always get a shitty picture (stretched and filtred), with scrolling artefact...

Aw shit...

56

Re: Low-res screenshots

Eboshidori escribió:

I tried to take the best and sharpest pictures, tried several way to resize them, but at the end, it's the same problem: there aren't enough pixel to show enough details.

To take sharper pictures of the CRT screen, remember it's a question of shutter speed and underexposure. Try to find the good set-up to, to have low levels, just enough to be able to recover them.

I'm still to check the camera's settings and try it out properly according to your instructions, but thanks. Will do it soon.





So, you display a 448x448 picture in a 640x480 windows. You just have to change the horizontal size in the chassis of your CRT, a perfect stretch with no loss of quality (thanx to the flexibility of the raster).

Stretching 448 lines out of 640 for a 4 : 3 display sounds like a bit too much, though, even for the best tubes out there. I'm interested in the interlace disabling without scan converter you mention though. Which TVs have it or how do you find it on the service menus?

57 (editado por Eboshidori 19-07-2010 18:37:46)

Re: Low-res screenshots

Stretching 448 lines out of 640 for a 4 : 3 display sounds like a bit too much, though, even for the best tubes out there.

Remember that manufacturers use the same chassis for several size (20" to 25", and 25" to 29", for example). You can take a 25" chassis and put it on a 29" tube. In analog chassis, you can change the potentiometers according to your needs, but for numercial chassis, you need to change the range of the values available (ex: a 25" chassis is blocked at 3F in its parameters, and the same chassis programmed for a 29" can go to FF).
Some manufacturers use the same chassis for 16/9 and 4/3 tubes, you just have to specify it in the service mode (and have a wider range for the scanning).

The increase of a picture size has the limitations of the electronic  but you can get good enough result to display a picture with a black border. This is not pure full screen, but its way better than a crappy filtred shit badly scaled.
From what I've read on boards, even players that use flat screen in tate don't use a full strecth for the picture: they tried the best % to minimise the artefats...






I'm interested in the interlace disabling without scan converter you mention though. Which TVs have it or how do you find it on the service menus?

First, you can only find it in numerical chassis (TVs from 1995 and after). In some TVs, it is explicitly indicated in some menus:

http://raster.effect.free.fr/15khz/480i … 8366_2.jpg

( other pictures at : http://raster.effect.free.fr/15khz/480i-240p/  )

This example is a 1995 Trinitron.
The TDA-8366 (from Philips) is available in various TVs (Sony and Philips of course, but others brands that don't make CRT themselves). Easy: set the "interlace" option to 0 or 1 to enable or disable the interlacing, for absolutly every incoming signal. This is raw deinterlacing (no conversion), the specifics sync pulsations and the half scanline (32 microseconds instead of the regular 64 ones) that are responsible of the interlacing process are simply skipped.

Other TVs propose you to change the setting of the crystal oscillator. By doing this, it can disable the interlacing. I saw that in some TVs (from 2000 to 2002, Thomson chassis). The problem is that the interlacing is back when you exit the service mode and reboot the TV... (maybe the deinterlacing was a bug and not specifically wanted ?).



Few months ago, I went to a friend's to install a Wei-Ya multi-sync chassis in his Windy II (Konami Cab'). We tried SFIV (PS3) set at 576i (yeah... PAL). The chassis didn't do the interlacing, showing the game at 288p. It looked great, but the only problem was the big flicker of the gauges. Any straight and bright horizontal lines tend to flicker a lot.

I tried to make a simple electronic circuit to skip the special lines of the vertical sync, but I had problem of image stability, and "fading" (the image gets darker). Now, since I use soft15khz and generate my own modelines, I know where the problem comes from (front and back porch).
At the time I didn't go further, because I noticed that the "deinterlaced" picture looks awfull if the source was filtred (either bilinear or anti-flicker)...
If the game or the system doesn't allow you to display a clean picture, it's not worthy to try to display 240p. If You try to regain scalines from a game with 240 lines that have been scaled to 448 lines (the typical PS2 case) and filtred, you'll get nasty flickering on few lines, and shitty picture anyway.

But when you start from a nice source (an emulator set at 480i with perfect line doubling and no filters, displayed on your TV with soft15khz), it gives you perfect results ! (and absolutly no lag)




[EDIT :] Display those 2 pcitures in your browser to see the magical deinterlacing in action ^^ :

http://raster.effect.free.fr/15khz/480i … z_480i.jpg
http://raster.effect.free.fr/15khz/480i … z_240p.jpg

58

Re: Low-res screenshots

Eboshidori escribió:

First, you can only find it in numerical chassis (TVs from 1995 and after). In some TVs, it is explicitly indicated in some menus:

http://raster.effect.free.fr/15khz/480i … 8366_2.jpg

( other pictures at : http://raster.effect.free.fr/15khz/480i-240p/  )

This example is a 1995 Trinitron.

It's the TV I'm using currently. I just need to find "Interlace", right?




At the time I didn't go further, because I noticed that the "deinterlaced" picture looks awfull if the source was filtred (either bilinear or anti-flicker)...
If the game or the system doesn't allow you to display a clean picture, it's not worthy to try to display 240p. If You try to regain scalines from a game with 240 lines that have been scaled to 448 lines (the typical PS2 case) and filtred, you'll get nasty flickering on few lines, and shitty picture anyway.

Some interlaced PS2 games should be originally 224 lines instead of 240, like, say, the ports of Psikyo games. Have you tried Mushi or Ibara? They're supposedly 320 x 240 originally. I know they're all filtered, but many people are de-interlacing them with soft patches and whatnot and they seem to work to some degree.



But when you start from a nice source (an emulator set at 480i with perfect line doubling and no filters, displayed on your TV with soft15khz), it gives you perfect results ! (and absolutly no lag)

I'm thinking indeed about many possibilities. Windows games at 320 x 240 design resolution but with forced 640 x 480 mode in full screen, for instance. There're lots of doujin games like that (some do keep the desktop rez, fortunately for us with 15 kHz cards, but very few).

And what about Capcom's DC games like Capcom vs SNK 2 or Marvel vs Capcom 2? You must have tested that!

If this somehow works (can't you harm the TV?) you've made my day.

59

Re: Low-res screenshots

It's the TV I'm using currently. I just need to find "Interlace", right?

Go to the service mode (with the remote), and check it. Sometimes, it's called " VCO " , or " XTAL ".


Some interlaced PS2 games should be originally 224 lines instead of 240, like, say, the ports of Psikyo games.

It's even worse, considering the PAL and NTSC resolutions: so, in many compilations, you have games with 224 lines that are stretched to 480 lines (PAL resolution of the PS2, 50 Hz) , and you have games with 240 lines stretched to 448 (NTSC resolution, 60 Hz).



Have you tried Mushi or Ibara? They're supposedly 320 x 240 originally. I know they're all filtered, but many people are de-interlacing them with soft patches and whatnot and they seem to work to some degree.

I tried Mushi. It's badly scaled on the Y axis (240 to 448) as you know, but even on the X axis !!! When the backgrounds scroll, there are several places where the lines are suddenly divided...
It's small, but it's anoying. And of course the game is filtred.

Here is a demonstration: take your genuine 320x240 picture [>], and apply a brainless scaling that keep the aspect ratio when it's not recommanded [>]597x448, instead of use a clean doubling on X axis (320x2=640). If the game had artefacts only on the Y axis, it should have been better. But doing the same way as Dai-Ou-Jou would have been so much better !!! -_-

I didn't try the patch for recovering the 240p mode, but I know the picture won't be much better. A filtred picture is an altered picture, a bad upscal is a bad upscal, and nothing can be done. You need more than a patch (that set the PS2 output in PS-one mode), you need to modify the game's code... Well, it's a bit tricky ! :P

Same shit for Ibara (some would say it's even worst, but I can't imagine how it could be worst...).




I'm thinking indeed about many possibilities. Windows games at 320 x 240 design resolution but with forced 640 x 480 mode in full screen, for instance. There're lots of doujin games like that (some do keep the desktop rez, fortunately for us with 15 kHz cards, but very few).

If the game runs at 640x480 with a clean line doubling, there's no need to force it to 320x240. Just run the graphic card at 480i, and disable the interlacing on the TV.

If you use Windows XP, when you force the game at a lower resolution, it may be filtred, as everything is filtred by now (on Windows 2000, the defaut image viewer didn't filter the pictures when you saw them at different resolution, for example).

And what about Capcom's DC games like Capcom vs SNK 2 or Marvel vs Capcom 2? You must have tested that!

If this somehow works (can't you harm the TV?) you've made my day.

It works, but you have heavy flicker on bright horizontal lines, and the picture isn't as sharp as a true 240 ouput...

There is no danger for the TV, the deinterlacing process doesn't modify frequency, timings and voltage amplitude of the signal. It's just a question of skipping some sync lines and the half-scanline of the regular interlaced signal.

Every old game systems that run at 240p use non standard signal, a video signal  with (deliberately) missing sync informations. That's the secret. :)

60

Re: Low-res screenshots

Eboshidori escribió:

Some interlaced PS2 games should be originally 224 lines instead of 240, like, say, the ports of Psikyo games.

It's even worse, considering the PAL and NTSC resolutions: so, in many compilations, you have games with 224 lines that are stretched to 480 lines (PAL resolution of the PS2, 50 Hz) , and you have games with 240 lines stretched to 448 (NTSC resolution, 60 Hz).

Sure, but for games originally of 224 lines on NTSC machines (the ones that matter), it could serve. Anything's better than plain scaling.



I tried Mushi. It's badly scaled on the Y axis (240 to 448) as you know, but even on the X axis !!! When the backgrounds scroll, there are several places where the lines are suddenly divided...
It's small, but it's anoying. And of course the game is filtred.

I guess that you'd get the same issues with the soft patch?




I'm thinking indeed about many possibilities. Windows games at 320 x 240 design resolution but with forced 640 x 480 mode in full screen, for instance. There're lots of doujin games like that (some do keep the desktop rez, fortunately for us with 15 kHz cards, but very few).

If the game runs at 640x480 with a clean line doubling, there's no need to force it to 320x240. Just run the graphic card at 480i, and disable the interlacing on the TV.

If you use Windows XP, when you force the game at a lower resolution, it may be filtred, as everything is filtred by now (on Windows 2000, the defaut image viewer didn't filter the pictures when you saw them at different resolution, for example).

Just to clarify, for the games which just keep the desktop rez on full-screen mode, you don't force anything. They work flawlessly if you're at 320 x 240. For the games which get pixel-doubled on full-screen mode, I never knew how to force them for a 240p display, I'm afraid -- they auto-change to 480i.




There is no danger for the TV, the deinterlacing process doesn't modify frequency, timings and voltage amplitude of the signal. It's just a question of skipping some sync lines and the half-scanline of the regular interlaced signal.

Every old game systems that run at 240p use non standard signal, a video signal  with (deliberately) missing sync informations. That's the secret. :)

Yeah, I know. It's nice how they turned a by-product into a wonderful artform, though. But wasn't sure about forcing it with the service menu -- can't wait to check it out now.

61 (editado por Eboshidori 21-07-2010 01:35:40)

Re: Low-res screenshots

Sure, but for games originally of 224 lines on NTSC machines (the ones that matter), it could serve. Anything's better than plain scaling.

Yes, in that case, it works fine. But "plain scaling" should be done only if resolutions are exact multiples (224 and 448, 240 and 480).
In CRT display, especially at low resolution, the most important thing is the precision of the line. If you want "full screen", you juste have to change the geometry size of the picture. But that's a thing lot of programers don't know or don't take in consideration, assuming that the typical customer will never be able to change the size of his picture...

When all game systems had lower resolutions and smaller color palette, nobody could strecth and filter the picture. The best choice was always taken (because there weren't other choice ^^) : crop the picture.
The first console to open the path to shitty filtring and bad scaling was the Dreamcast.


I guess that you'd get the same issues with the soft patch?

I hardly expect that changing just a few hexadecimal lines will magicaly offer a good regular scaling... The few modified lines (in fact, the same line reported several time in the iso file) remove the interlacing (set the 240p PS1 mode), but you will always get the scrolling artefacts, and blurry picture of course.

So yeah, just saving money to buy the PCB... :P (and I'll do the same for Kestui).


Just to clarify, for the games which just keep the desktop rez on full-screen mode, you don't force anything. They work flawlessly if you're at 320 x 240. For the games which get pixel-doubled on full-screen mode, I never knew how to force them for a 240p display, I'm afraid -- they auto-change to 480i.

Ok, I understand better.

If the software is able to display a 480p content at 15 kHz 480i, it may be possible to "remove" the sync pulsations of the interlacing before the output and display a 640x240 frame.
It's not exaclty a genuine 320x240, but it's impossible to make the distinction. ^^

Even if nothing is done on that way, as long as you display a non filtred 480i picture with the same content for each pairs of lines, you have the possibility to get a nice 240p picture by removing the interlacing in the TVs that allow it (or in any 15 kHz monitor if I achieve my little electronic circuit ^^).


It's nice how they turned a by-product into a wonderful artform, though

The strongest constraints are the roots of the most valuable fulfillments.

That's why video games die inexorably as time goes by.

62

Re: Low-res screenshots

Eboshidori escribió:

If the software is able to display a 480p content at 15 kHz 480i, it may be possible to "remove" the sync pulsations of the interlacing before the output and display a 640x240 frame.
It's not exaclty a genuine 320x240, but it's impossible to make the distinction. ^^

It's not the game, but of course Windows through the 15-kHz video drivers the one which makes the usual 480p into 480i. It's not different in this regard, I guess, to plugging a standard video card into a 15 kHz TV with S-video and the TV mode.




Even if nothing is done on that way, as long as you display a non filtred 480i picture with the same content for each pairs of lines, you have the possibility to get a nice 240p picture by removing the interlacing in the TVs that allow it (or in any 15 kHz monitor if I achieve my little electronic circuit ^^).

Good luck and keep us informed. Sounds like too much work.



That's why video games die inexorably as time goes by.

Speaking of dying things, do you know somewhere to get a 29'', multi-sync CRT (15-24-31) currently, brand-new, if possible? Hantarex has stopped selling them here in Spain. A shame, 'cause they even had them SCART-ready and with a shell perfectly suitable for placing them vertically too...

63 (editado por Eboshidori 22-07-2010 01:45:57)

Re: Low-res screenshots

Recap escribió:

It's not different in this regard, I guess, to plugging a standard video card into a 15 kHz TV with S-video and the TV mode.

The "TV-out" of graphic cards are heavily filtred !!! And it's not possible to remove the anti-flicker option. Soft15kHz is such a better tool to provide you a usable picture.



Good luck and keep us informed. Sounds like too much work.

A guy that created a ZX Spectrum clone ("Harlequin") from scratch made a website with lot of informations on sync generation. I'll ask him some tips regarding the raw deinterlacing circuit (how to properly generate the vertical pulses from the horizontal sync that have been splitted with the help of a LM1981).
Maybe I'll need to use a FPGA, considering the various sync (and porchs) of the different gaming consoles.



Speaking of dying things, do you know somewhere to get a 29'', multi-sync CRT (15-24-31) currently, brand-new, if possible? Hantarex has stopped selling them here in Spain. A shame, 'cause they even had them SCART-ready and with a shell perfectly suitable for placing them vertically too...

I don't know. Even Pentranic (in UK) closed their page about CRT monitors.

But you know, an arcade CRT isn't different from a regular TV tube. It has the same large picth (0.7 mm for a 27-29",  and even larger for Well & Gardner tube !), the guns are the same, same shadow mask.

Instead of buying the whole monitor, you can just buy a tri-sync chassis and plug it on a good tube with a nicely designed yoke (Philips, Thomson, VideoColor, Panasonic...). Wei-Ya's are a good deal, even if they don't produce the best chassis out there. For less than 150 € (shipping include, if you make grouped order with other guys, which is easier to do than for complete monitor), it's really interesting.

A nice thing to do would be to adapt those chassis to a Trinitron tube. I'm working on the subject, since there are important differences between Trinitrons and regular tubes (the gun structure and video amplificator board, especially the H-stat part, that doesn't exists for standard tubes).

Personnaly, I would buy a brand new 29" tube only if I could find one with a low pitch (around 0.4 mm).
Most TV tubes age well, espacially Trinitrons that can deliver a sharp spot even past 90 000 hours ( check it [>] : 89387 hours, 9 month ago).

I have a Sony PVM from the early 1990's (27"), and the picture is amazing, you could not guess it's around 20 years old.
The TV repairers who do CRT rejuvenation almost never do it for Trinitron tubes (there's no need).


When you manage to perfectly set-up the electonic that drives the tube, there's no distinction between what you can see in the best arcade cabs and your regular TV.
Most TVs sold to the public are poorly adjusted and deliver a crappy picture (with poor focus and bad grayscal) but it's a question of time and knowledge to overcome this.
Arcade monitors have better set-up, but you can encounter convergence problems and even grayscal tracking, too.


CRT technology is good technology. Since many years, manufacturers know how to construct good picture tube. The main thing is the electronic for driving the tube, how to set-up it properly. That's what I'm working on for many years. I've tested many chassis swap, yoke swap, tubes swap,  I came to the conclusion that there aren't "bad tubes", it's just a question of set-up (and, well, a good design for the yoke). So, I'm no more interested  of buying a "real arcade tube", only the electronics interest me.

64 (editado por Ronan 28-11-2012 00:16:56)

Re: Low-res screenshots

I am finally playing again with screenshots, using GIMP and a PC this time. And I have noticed that the method for quadrupled screenshots I had explained earlier is not working properly on this new setup. (Even the upscaling is not right...) Also, the method is a bit bothersome to use.

So I somehow managed to write a script for the GIMP that can do everything automatically, but still lets the user plays with the parameters if he wants to. GIMP is a free, powerful and cross-platform software, so it should now be easy for anybody to get the expected results. In order to use this script, you should:

- Install GIMP (link), of course

- Download my script (link), and copy it to the script folder: C:\Documents and Settings\YourUserName\.gimp-2.8\scripts

- Launch GIMP (or, if you had already done it before copying my script, refresh the scripts: Filters/Script-Fu/Refresh Scripts)

- Open your screenshot (and correct the image if necessary)

- Launch the script: Filters/CRT/Quadruple screenshot
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x395/p0mpile/Postback/a.png

- In the window that pops up, you may change some parameters: amount of horizontal blur, opacity of the four layers creating the scanline effect, optional distortion. (If you want to be able to play by yourself with the layers creating the scanline effect, you should uncheck the box "Flatten image", and leave 0 for the distortion.) Then press OK and wait for a few seconds.
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x395/p0mpile/Postback/b.png

- You got your image. If you have unchecked the box "Flatten image", then you can adjust the opacity of the four layers creating the scanline effect in order to suit your taste.
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x395/p0mpile/Postback/c.png


I will try to improve this script in the future, and am of course open to questions and suggestions.

65

Re: Low-res screenshots

Cool, thanks, Ronan.

66

Re: Low-res screenshots

You are welcome. I have found quite a lot of things to add to the script, so I will work on it and provide an update when I am finished. I hope it will be useful to someone. By the way, are you still working on new articles or on the site redesign?

67

Re: Low-res screenshots

Be sure that this thread has quite a few followers here and there. When you're done, I think your method should get a separate thread, so that it's well visible for everybody.

And yeah, I'm still working on Postback 2.0, thanks. It will happen eventually, but some design issues need to be solved first. It's in a better shape than a year ago, at least...

68 (editado por Ronan 30-11-2012 02:58:40)

Re: Low-res screenshots

Here is an extended version of the script, with a slightly modified scanline effect and options for contrast modification and subpixel texturing. If you do not flatten the image, you have a lot of parameters which you can play with by changing the opacity of the various layers.
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?0nr5rp75cxnvsq5

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x395/p0mpile/CRT-4xv02.png

69 (editado por Ronan 01-12-2012 23:13:57)

Re: Low-res screenshots

My script was running very slowly, so I modified the code. The new version 0.3 should be much faster.

http://www.mediafire.com/?ob4cvs1ftckny4v

70 (editado por Ronan 02-12-2012 01:35:24)

Re: Low-res screenshots

And a new version with a basic halation effect. There are therefore more parameters now. If you find better ones than the default, let me know.

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zeqs640acgwadsd

As a  reminder: if you have unchecked "Flatten image", you can then play with the layers' opacity. But the possible layers for distortion and halation must be made invisible or deleted in order to see any effect of the layers below.

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x395/p0mpile/Postback/Panel.png

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x395/p0mpile/Postback/CRT-4x-v04.png

71 (editado por Ronan 21-02-2017 23:07:09)

Re: Low-res screenshots

No real progress on my side after all that time. I am quite happy with my script for doubled screenshots, but not so much with the one for quadrupled screenshots, since it does not really allow simulating a round spot.

However, I have seen that you can load PNG pictures in RetroArch, thus automatically upscaling them and applying a shader, and then take screenshots. You may find it useful with all the CRT shaders with tweakable settings there are out there.

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x395/p0mpile/Postback/buster_detail_zpsr7q1t1dh.png
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x39 … 8g37pu.png

72

Re: Low-res screenshots

Hey, Ronan.

Thanks for the tip. Not sure how you load a .PNG file in RA, though. That sample from Buster, is it yours or RA's? It's not good enough, I'm afraid, but I strongly believe it's useless to keep trying at that scale factor. We most likely need x 8 onwards (but then, only "4-k" monitors will be able to display it full screen, so until they get more common, it's kind of pointless).

I haven't given up regarding Postback 2.0, by the way. (Yeah; whatever.)

73

Re: Low-res screenshots

Hello, Recap.

Yes, the Buster sample comes from a RetroArch screenshot. I just used the shader CRT-Royale with some popular settings aiming to simulate a PVM monitor. It is possible to increase the resolution, of course, although you would probably need to try (and maybe combine) different shaders and tweak their settings yourself to be satisfied:

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x395/p0mpile/Postback/buster_sample_zpsueplxazm.png

I was letting you know about this stuff precisely because of the new Postback. But it will not be coming very soon if you are waiting for 4K monitors to become mainstream, I guess. =]

74

Re: Low-res screenshots

That should work better, given a proper physical size, I guess. Still, brighter pixels suffer from too much halation against the darkest areas? It will depend on which CRT you're trying to mimic, of course, but I miss some general blurriness to get a more cohesive, organic pic.

https://s16.postimg.org/vam4clkol/rka.jpg

I've no experience with shaders for now, I'm afraid. I have confidence in getting better at photographing CRT screens since I want the best, most authentic way. It's painfully time-consuming, but hopefully I can get tolerable results at ~1280 x 1024:

https://s4.postimg.org/6jfdf0dtp/NG_Kizuna_02f.png

Anyway, that's only one of the problems I'm facing. I want to get the printed-mag effect in the small screens I need to actually use in the templates:

https://s27.postimg.org/64m03ru8z/Sailor_Moon08.jpg

Everything I've tried which doesn't involve a scanner looks like shit.

And then, there's the font issue. I can't stand filtered fonts (clear-type..., that crap) at small sizes, and I don't want my site to be viewed with them, at least on PCs. Sadly, I haven't found the time to study the subject. All I know is that you indeed need an old OS or special configurations (such as mine) to get rid of it, since your web browser isn't controlling it anymore, so there may be no point.

https://s31.postimg.org/tsjhui1cb/font_proper.png


Everything is dumber thanks to Apple these days, isn't it?

75 (editado por Ronan 24-02-2017 22:11:21)

Re: Low-res screenshots

Your Kizuna Encounter photo is indeed nice. A pity that this process is so time-consuming.

I could try to play a bit with the shader settings for the big screenshots, if you like. (The BVM might not be the style of monitor you would like to simulate, though. Rather a Trinitron, maybe? And I assume you still want curvature.)

However, I doubt I could manage to do anything for the small screenshots, seeing how I failed miserably in the past...

As for fonts, I also used to hate subpixel rendering, but I do not mind it anymore on screens with a high enough pixel density. You must have a keener eye than me...

By the way, if you have time, I have one question that might not be pertinent to Postback but that is nevertheless bothering me: what is the best way to simulate a screenshot from a game that runs natively in 480i? Are we supposed to combine two consecutive fields? That would look terrible...